ECT Q for those who believe in salvation by grace thru faith in Christ w/o works
- Thread starter musterion
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Those passages in Gal. 6 have no more to do with what you are asserting, than a passage like Rom. 6:23 does.
As in Rom. 6, wherein he has already asserted the Believer's once for all eternal life in Rom. 5.
At which point he then proceeds to deal with various core issues faced by a fully justified son in his day to day.
Issues that impact, not his inheritance, but its reward - our respective role in reigning WITH Him IN Glory, one day.
Likewise as to Gal. 6; he has already asserted their eternal security in Gal. 3, and is now dealing, not with the issue of eternal life, but of loss and or gain in said eternal life's eternal rewards.
The issue of reaping of negatives and or positives in the here and now, that one will later see the impact of in glory, that one either allowed now, or robbed oneself of both now and as to Glory then - that eternal weight of glory.
It is the issue of working out now, what one has been given in the Lord, so that one will be found that much more a servant fit for the master's use, both now, and in Glory one day.
1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
The "destroy" there is the issue IN glory one day, of being found to have built things in one's mind and life, of no use in Glory, then.
The issue Paul is ever dealing with is that of exaltation in Glory WITH the Lord of Glory, IN Glory, one day, as a result of what one both built up in one's understanding and lived in accordance with...now.
This here...
Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
You want some of that exaltation WITH Him in Glory, one day, when every knee shall bow to Him?
Well, let His mind, be yours now.
How?
2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. 2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
Result? Fruit that will redound to your account both now, and in that glorious day, one day.
2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; 2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
THAT IS The Apostle Paul's RECURRENT Pattern on THIS issue THROUGHOUT Romans thru Philemon.
Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. 6:3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. 6:4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.
Verse 6 is that future day, one day, based on one's now...
6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
Lol, some of you opposed to all this are like the ever rebellious "Outlaw" Josey Wales.
Where that tough as nails old woman with the heart of gold, played by Tambora, ur, Ruth Gordon, lol, is singing "In the sweet, by and bye," and Josey just spits his tobacco on that mangy dog's head :chuckle:
Interplanner
Well-known member
To Shasta,
in the setting of Galatians, you will find that rather than being about a particular individuals performance, 'flesh' are those who are mixing Judaism and faith in the Gospel, while "spirit" refers to those who are in the faith of the Gospel only. This is not quite the situation you are talking about.
Bible isn't thin air
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I said that the idea that the Calvinists teach, that "life" precedes "faith," is made up out of thin air. The following words of John makes it plain that "life" comes as a result of "faith" and not before faith:
"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).
Only those who have nothing but thin air between their ears cannot understand this simple principle.
Shasta
Well-known member
The scripture, even the gospel of John where this verse comes from fills in the rest of the story - which is that we must keep putting our faith in Him. The many warnings given to believers throughout scripture provide ample evidence that you are just using one verse in isolation of others as a proof text for your presupposition of unconditional eternal security but for the sake of being thorough let us look at at the scripture you have referenced.
16“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
(John 3:16)
The first time the word "loved" is used in verse 16 the verb is in the aorist tense which describes a single action that has occurred in the past. It matches the tense of the verb "he gave" The verse is describing the historic giving of the Son and the love that motivated it. Obviously the Father is no longer giving the Son as a ransom.
"That" introduces the purposeof the Father's action: that whoever believes in Him. If your view were correct and believing in the Son need only occur once we would expect this idea to be reflected in the grammar of the text. Now Greek verbs do more than specify time. In fact, they as much about the KIND of action as the tense. Had Jesus meant to convey the idea of a single moment of belief which is efficacious for all time He would have used the aorist form of "believe." Instead, He uses the present tense participle form which indicates a faith that is ongoing.
http://biblehub.com/text/john/3-16.htm
Jesus' metaphors - abiding in the Vine, feeding on the living bread, the inner fountain springing up to eternal life - are about ongoing processes not a single one-time transaction or deposit. You are right that the life is in the Son but we must remain in the Son if we are to continue enjoying it. It is possible to turn from Him and to cease following him (John 15:6, Hebrews 3:12)
To answer your question, though, I will say that those who believe in Him (on an ongoing basis) will never perish. He offers no such assurances to those who turn away with an "evil heart of unbelief."
Shasta
Well-known member
The New Testament gives a lot of specific warnings to believers. You choose to disregard all of those solely because of the general way he addresses a Church? This provides proof that unconditional eternal security leads to antinomianism.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
At the moment when a person believes they receive eternal life:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.
In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:
"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."
Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occurring in actual time."
That is why John tells Christians that they already have been given eternal life (1 Jn.5:11) and the Lord Jesus says that all of those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish:
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).
This is not a "conditional" statement but instead there are absolutely no "conditions" attached to His promise. He said that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish but you say that they can.
musterion
Well-known member
Who are you to judge those who are dead to the condemning Law of God? What gives you the authority?
Interplanner
Well-known member
Because there are people who say Lord, Lord... (Mt 7) and there are those who deny him (I Tim 2), and there are those who do not stay in faith, Col 1. God does not justify a person from their sin who does not think they need to be justified.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So you think that those who have been given eternal life can perish even though the Lord Jesus said that they will never perish?
Shasta
Well-known member
a. Galatians 3 does not say "you are all unconditionally and eternally secure" That assumption is based upon your presuppositions but it is not in the text.
b. When Paul speaks of sowing to the Spirit in chapter 6 he is not talking about trying to keep the Mosaic Law quite the opposite.
c. The only "future day" spoken of in Galatians 6 is when he speaks of the time of harvest but let us look at the passage.
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (or destruction), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
(Galatians 6:7-8).
In these verses Paul is using the ancient law of sowing and reaping to emphasize that what we do affects our lives now and in the future. Since he is writing to believers the lesson is for us as well.
He starts off by saying "God is not mocked." Now in what way might God be "mocked?" Sticking as close to the text as possible, the natural conclusion is that people mock God whenever they say something like "We can do anything we want and get away with it." That is the way defiant children mock a weak teacher who lacks the authority to reward or punish them for their actions. Paul is saying emphatically that this is not true with God.
Still, this is exactly the position of many people in the Church today. I talk to them regularly - Christians living in fornication who seem to have an unshakeable assurance that they will inherit eternal life no matter what they do. Why not? Their antinomian preachers have told them so. In fact, this passage seems to have been written specifically to people like this. "Do not be deceived. God is not mocked. As a man sows so also will he reap." Saying that people can live a lifestyle of sin and not be held accountable is not defending the doctrine of grace, it is mocking God and, according to Paul, it is deception.
Now, to be clear, when Paul speaks of sowing he uses a present tense verb meaning that he is not talking about instances where a believer might sin and then repent of it and be forgiven. Rather he is speaking of an ongoing habit of life. This principle of sowing and reaping not only applies to sin. It also applies to walking with God, which the Apostle refers to as "sowing to the Spirit." Here also the word "sowing" denotes continuing to sow.
In the Parable of the Seeds, the Son of Man was the sower and each seed was planted once. In Paul's metaphor we are the sowers and our activities are ongoing whether it involves "sowing to the flesh" or "sowing to the Spirit." Paul does not specify exactly what sowing to the Spirit involves but it is definitely not JUST about what we believe. It is also about living out our faith in our actions.
9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest IF we do not give up (Galatians 6:9)
By using IF Paul makes "reaping a harvest" (i.e., inheriting eternal life) contingent upon our not "giving up" but rather continuing in the faith It does not sound like Paul believed a one-time decision of faith irrevocably bestows eternal life on a person irrespective of anything they do.
Paul does not list specific things believers should be doing only that we should should be actively "doing good." Well the scripture says Jesus went about "doing good" and the works He did were not His own. They originated in the Father. This is the same way we are to walk. Paul also says we should not be weary in this work of "doing good" In fact, he says that if we "sow to please the Spirit" we will reap eternal life when the harvest comes. Since the harvest occurs at the end of the sower's job "eternal life" is evidently something we will receive at the end of our lives. More importantly, though, eternal life is shown to be a reward for those who make consistent choices to please the Spirit throughout life.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Paul is not speaking of believers here because believers have already reaped eternal life. Instead, he is talking about mankind in general.
Shasta
Well-known member
First of all, there is a condition and that is that people must put their faith or believe in Christ...unless, you believe that this is not necessary and all that needs to happen is for God to unilaterally regenerate them.
Whatever the case you seem to think that initial faith has nothing whatever to do with continuing in the faith but that is what the Bible says. As we have received Christ Jesus so we must (continue to) walk in Him. Jesus speaks extensively on the necessity of continuing in the faith elsewhere in this very book (John).
That it is not sufficient to have faith once but that we must continue to walk by faith is suggested in this verse (John 3:16).
When speaking of Greek verbs we cannot get the idea that the tense of the verb is ONLY about when it happens. Primarily the tense describes the kind of action or how it unfolds.
Had the perfect or aorist tense of the verb "believe" been used it would have been unmistakable that the speaker was indicating a single action. An example of this can be seen in 1 John 1:9 John says that when we confess our sins God will "forgive" and "cleanse" us. Since Christ does not need to continue forgiving and cleansing us for the same sin the word "forgive" and "cleanse" are both in the aorist tense. On the other hand, when John says "whoever commits sin is of the Devil" the Greek verb translated "commit" is in the present tense meaning that it is an ongoing practice.
The fact that the verb "believe" is in the present tense in John 3:16 is not just meant to indicate something happening in the present. It is more about the aktionsart or "kind" of action the verb suggest which is action that is continual.
Shasta
Well-known member
The people he was writing were believers in the Church at Galatia. Still, even if he were writing about mankind the verse
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (or destruction), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
(Galatians 6:7-8).
Would still be true.
Your paradigm is inadequate to interpret this verse, I maintain, because it is flawed.
Shasta
Well-known member
You are confusing the Mosaic Law with laws of right and wrong that are the universal will of God. That law predated all written laws. When Cain killed Abel murder it was wrong even before any law had been written. God judged the Antedeluvians, the Sodomites and other cultures for their sins, centuries before Moses was born. How was that fair when He had not revealed a legal code to them? It was fair because it had been revealed to man in their consciences. The knowledge originated in God whose nature is holy, righteous and just.
To condemn right and wrong itself is just lawlessness which God hates. Jesus did not die on the cross so we could be lawless. The New Covenant was intended to reconcile us to God so that through the Spirit we might fulfill the essence of the law.
3 For what the Law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the righteous standard of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit (Romans 8:3-4; 6:19).
As for me, I do not need any authority to decide what is right and wrong. Jesus reveals it as did the prophets and apostles. I cannot judge the secrets of men's hearts unless God reveals it to me but what people do is visible and it does not take a spiritual giant to recognize immorality.
Shasta
Well-known member
Just to add a bit more to what I said before about the verb "believe" in the phrase "that whoever should believe in Him should have everlasting life." "Believe" is a verbal noun (i.e., a participle) and not a verb but this does not change my essential point. A. T. Robertson says this about the difference between participles in the aorist tense verses those that in the present tense:
Had Jesus used the aorist participle form of believe it would have indicated that believing and obtaining eternal life occurred at a single point in time. Using the present tense participle made the act of believing durative (or ongoing).
musterion
Well-known member
I asked you a question.
Who are you to judge as wrong those who are dead to the condemning Law of God? Those who are beyond God's judgment, by His own decree? Who are YOU?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Bible says that a person has eternal life the moment when they believe. and the lord Jesus says that those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish. But you deny that truth.
The Scriptures also say that eternal life is a gift (Ro.6:23). The Scriptures also say that the gifts of God are irrevocable which means that He will not take back that gift from those to whom He gives it:
"for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable" (Ro.11:29).
But you say that the LORD will take back that gift. We can also see that those who are given eternal life will not come into judgment concerning his salvation:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
But you say that when someone no longer possess eternal life they will be judged.
This verse is speaking of a Christian's service or fruit bearing. Not salvation.
Sir Robert Anderson writes, "The language of the sixth verse, if carefully studied, will prevent our mistaking His meaning. 'If any one does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch, and is withered.' To bear fruit apart from Him is quite as impossible as to be saved apart from Him. The severed branch of another sort of tree might be used in some way. But as every Palestinian peasant knew, vine branches were useless ; men gather them and cast them into the fire and they are burned. Indeed, these words of Christ about vine branches are, no doubt, a reference to Ezekiel xv. 8, 4, 'Shall wood be taken thereof to do any work? Behold, it is cast into the fire for fuel.' They are not a doctrinal statement relating to the future destiny of men, but a parable to illustrate truth relating to the conduct and life of His people here and now" (Anderson, Misunderstood Texts of the New Testament, [Kregel Publications, 1991], pp.68-69).