ECT Q for those who believe in salvation by grace thru faith in Christ w/o works

Q for those who believe in salvation by grace thru faith in Christ w/o works

  • Total voters
    21
  • Poll closed .
dodge

dodge

New member
Jerry Shugart;4967581]Since the LORD knows the heart of man He knows if someone has true faith. And immediately upon believing the gospel that believer receives eternal life. And the lord Jesus said that all those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish.

So upon believing a person is eternally saved. Nothing which he might be willing to do or not to do after that can change his eternal security in anyway.
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All good but that was NOT what the poll was about it is about NOT being willing to stop sinning when approaching God to BECOME saved.

Poll: Must one be willing to stop sinning or he won't get saved?


But you seem to think that if that saved person is not willing to stop sinning then that person can perish despite the assurance of the Lord Jesus to the contrary.

Is that what you think?
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The question the poll is based on is NOT about a saved person.

Poll: Must one be willing to stop sinning or he won't get saved?
 
D

DAN P

Well-known member
Shasta said:
You treat "eternal life" as if it were something which people take ownership of and permanently possess as one might possess a commodity...but this is not what scripture says. Until the last judgement we possess His life provisionally not permanently. Aside from this, we cannot have life at all apart from Him. Jesus Christ Himself IS the life and our hope of glory. We "have" life derivatively as we continue to live in Him. /QUOTE]


Hi and Paul say that we are " in Christ " always as in Gal 3:28 !!

Towards the last of verse 28 it says , we " ARE in CHRIST " and the Greek word ESTE / ARE is in the Greek PRESENT TENSE and the present tense means CONTINUOUS ACTION in present time in the DISPENSATION of the Grace of God !!

Are / ESTE is also in the INDICATIVE MOOD and that means it is a FACT !!

In Christ in Gal 3:28 , thenmeans OSAS !!

dan p
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Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
dodge said:
All good but that was NOT what the poll was about it is about NOT being willing to stop sinning when approaching God to BECOME saved.

Poll: Must one be willing to stop sinning or he won't get saved?
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All you have to do in order to be saved is to hear the gospel and believe it. Therefore, there is no requirement about being willing to stop sinning that a person must do to be saved.
 
dodge

dodge

New member
Jerry Shugart said:
All you have to do in order to be saved is to hear the gospel and believe it. Therefore, there is no requirement about being willing to stop sinning that a person must do to be saved.
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Here is an example for you where I believe your wrong, and there are others !

Lets assume two men in a same sex relationship with NO intentions of ever stopping their relationship claim faith and salvation and they die never having stopped their same sex relationship do you really believe they were eternally secured in the Lord ? I DO NOT.

Why are you so against what scripture teaches about repenting ?
 
musterion

musterion

Well-known member
dodge said:
Here is an example for you where I believe your wrong, and there are others !

Lets assume two men in a same sex relationship with NO intentions of ever stopping their relationship claim faith and salvation and they die never having stopped their same sex relationship do you really believe they were eternally secured in the Lord ?
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First, what gospel do they believe? Start with that.
 
Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
musterion said:
Please demonstrate how you know repent is defined as "stop sinning."
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When John the Baptist saw Pharisees coming to be baptized he, suspecting them of hypocrisy, told them to:

"produce fruit worthy of repentance" (Matthew 3:8).

Before he Baptized them John wanted to see proof that they had repented. The only proof they could offer would be a definite change in the way they had been living, in other words, they would have stopped practicing a lifestyle of sin, and hypocrisy.

Paul also called people to repentance when he preached using almost the same terminology.

"First to those in Damascus and Jerusalem, then to everyone in the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I declared that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds worthy of their repentance (Acts 26:20).

The fact that he said they should "perform deeds" worthy of repentance shows that an inner spiritual change will be reflected by a change in a person's actions and choices. To repent of sin is therefore to cease from sin.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
dodge said:
Here is an example for you where I believe your wrong, and there are others !

Lets assume two men in a same sex relationship with NO intentions of ever stopping their relationship claim faith and salvation and they die never having stopped their same sex relationship do you really believe they were eternally secured in the Lord ? I DO NOT.
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Just because someone claims faith and salvation does not mean that they are saved. The LORD, who knows the heart, knows who has true faith and who does not. And to those with true faith He gives eternal life and the Lord Jesus says that those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish.

I say that someone who is in a same-sex relationship could hear the gospel and believe it in his heart at a time before he even gives any thought to ending that same-sex relationship. Therefore, he is saved and enjoys eternal security before he is willing to bring that relationship to an end.
 
musterion

musterion

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
Just because someone claims faith and salvation does not mean that they are saved. The LORD, who knows the heart, knows who has true faith and who does not. And to those with true faith He gives eternal life and the Lord Jesus says that those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish.

I say that someone who is in a same-sex relationship could hear the gospel and believe it in his heart at a time before he even gives any thought to ending that same-sex relationship. Therefore, he is saved and enjoys eternal security before he is willing to bring that relationship to an end.
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Just like in Corinth.
 
Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
Hi and Paul say that we are " in Christ " always as in Gal 3:28 !!
Towards the last of verse 28 it says , we " ARE in CHRIST " and the Greek word ESTE / ARE is in the Greek PRESENT TENSE and the present tense means CONTINUOUS ACTION in present time in the DISPENSATION of the Grace of God !!

Are / ESTE is also in the INDICATIVE MOOD and that means it is a FACT !!

In Christ in Gal 3:28 , thenmeans OSAS !!

dan p
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Their being "in Christ" was the condition they were in at that time. That was at that time THEIR present tense experience. Paul was not implying that they would necessarily choose to continue in Christ from that point on. From reading your posts before it appears that you do not clearly understand the Greek present tense. Instead, you interpret the present tense's lack of beginning or ending to mean that the action extends indefinitely into the future. This is incorrect. Primarily, the present tense describes whether an action in the present is iterative or linear as opposed to the aorist in which the action is punctiliar.

The mood of the word abide (meno) is not Indicative but Imperative. so the sentence should read "Abide in me" or really keep on abiding in me. not "You are abiding in me and you always will." If they would always be in Christ no matter what then Jesus command is superfluous. Why would He tell them to do something they could not help doing?

We have to remember that abide (meno) also means remain in and continue in so Jesus' command can also be understood to mean "continue" in Him as opposed to departing from Him. The conclusion is that being "in Christ" is not an permanent unconditional state but depends on human cooperation. In fact, Jesus actually pointed the danger of not remaining in Him (John 15:6).
 
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Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
musterion said:
Just like in Corinth.
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7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. Whatever a man sows, he will reap in return. 8The one who sows to please his flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; but the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.…(Galatians 6:7)

This sowing denotes not committing isolated acts of sins but rather practicing sin as an ongoing lifestyle. Paul tells us here that the idea that a person can live this way and not inherit destruction is deception. He is not talking about losing rewards, ruling over one city instead of ten, or even over no cities at all. He is talking about whether we reap eternal life itself. I notice that the Apostle gives no diplomatic immunity to backslidden believers either.
 
Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
musterion said:
Just stopping something produces fruit? Really?

What does metanoeia mean?
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If you are trying to imply that "repentance" it is about some inward state alone then I would urge you to re-read my previous post in which I listed some scriptures on the subject.

The evidence of a changed mind and heart are changed actions and choices. This is what Paul, the Apostles, John the Baptist and the prophets all called for. I have seen believers weep over some horrendous sin they have become entangled in while they are listening to a songs of conviction but afterward they get up and continue their sin as if they had not heard. This was hard for me to deal with until I saw that while "Godly sorrow leads to repentance" it is not the same thing AS repentance until the will is surrendered.

I would say ceasing from sin is a result of the work of the Spirit. Wouldn't you?
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Shasta said:
Their being "in Christ" was the condition they were in at that time. That was at that time THEIR present tense experience. Paul was not implying that they would necessarily choose to continue in Christ from that point on.
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Those who believe in their heart already have received eternal life, and that life is in the Son:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

That is what it means to be "in Christ." And here is what is said about true believers:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).​

Once a person believes they have eternal life in the Son and they will never perish.

Do you say that they can perish?
 
musterion

musterion

Well-known member
Shasta said:
If you are trying to imply that "repentance" it is about some inward state alone then I would urge you to re-read my previous post in which I listed some scriptures on the subject.

The evidence of a changed mind and heart are changed actions and choices. This is what Paul, the Apostles, John the Baptist and the prophets all called for. I have seen believers weep over some horrendous sin they have become entangled in while they are listening to a songs of conviction but afterward they get up and continue their sin as if they had not heard. This was hard for me to deal with until I saw that while "Godly sorrow leads to repentance" it is not the same thing AS repentance until the will is surrendered.

I would say ceasing from sin is a result of the work of the Spirit. Wouldn't you?
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What does the word metanoeia literally mean?
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Nang said:
No one believes and is saved, until they are regenerated by the resurrection power of the Holy Spirit. John 3:3
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That is just another idea that the Calvinists just made up out of thin air. The Bible reveals that a person receives life as a result of believing and not prior to believing. The Apostle John wrote this:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​
 
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