ECT Q for those who believe in salvation by grace thru faith in Christ w/o works

[Shasta]

Jerry Shugart;4968665]The Bible says that a person has eternal life the moment when they believe. and the lord Jesus says that those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish. But you deny that truth.

You do get eternal life but that life comes from Him and you must remain in Him and continue in Him to enjoy it. It is permanently and irrevocably granted only when we are judged.

The Scriptures also say that eternal life is a gift (Ro.6:23). The Scriptures also say that the gifts of God are irrevocable which means that He will not take back that gift from those to whom He gives it: "for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable" (Ro.11:29).[/INDENT]

Remaining faithful to Christ, continuing to believe does not EARN salvation. It is just a necessary condition. In context, the verse you brought up that speaks of "gifts and callings" being "irrevocable" is about the Jewish people.

…28 Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. 29 For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable (Romans 11:29).

The particular Jews Paul was referring to were apostate with respect to the faith because they had rejected their Messiah. Paul says they had become enemies of the gospel; nevertheless their election to a special purpose remained (and still remains). This does not illustrate the idea that having a calling means you will never fall away. As a matter of fact, Paul used the Jew's apostasy to warn believers about what could happen to them.

20...They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either. 22 Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, IF you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

As I said before the word "continue" is an intensive form of the word "abide" which means "continue on with persistence. Now in your thinking this is probably optional but in this verse Paul says that not continuing means being cut off, the same fate as that of a branch that does not abide in the Vine.

But you say that the LORD will take back that gift. We can also see that those who are given eternal life will not come into judgment concerning his salvation:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

But you say that when someone no longer possess eternal life they will be judged.

The promise of eternal life is for everyone who believes. That is true but Jesus is not addressing the issue of those who depart from Christ because of an evil heart of unbelief. That side of the matter need to be addressed every time the promise is spoken. The whole balance of truth can be found in many scriptures. Did you know that no one in the Early Church back to the first century believed this eternal security doctrine, not even Augustine or, much later, Luther. Both of them believed Christians could apostasize. Your belief came ultimately from John Calvin.

This verse is speaking of a Christian's service or fruit bearing. Not salvation.

Sir Robert Anderson writes, "The language of the sixth verse, if carefully studied, will prevent our mistaking His meaning. 'If any one does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch, and is withered.' To bear fruit apart from Him is quite as impossible as to be saved apart from Him. The severed branch of another sort of tree might be used in some way. But as every Palestinian peasant knew, vine branches were useless ; men gather them and cast them into the fire and they are burned. Indeed, these words of Christ about vine branches are, no doubt, a reference to Ezekiel xv. 8, 4, 'Shall wood be taken thereof to do any work? Behold, it is cast into the fire for fuel.' They are not a doctrinal statement relating to the future destiny of men, but a parable to illustrate truth relating to the conduct and life of His people here and now" (Anderson, Misunderstood Texts of the New Testament, [Kregel Publications, 1991], pp.68-69).

The fact that Christ's words "Abide (remain, continue) in Me" is in the imperative mood means that it is a command which the will must obey. If what you were saying were true there would be no need to command any believer to do it. Their connection to Christ would be permanent and fixed but continuing on in Christ is a choice we must continue to make and if we can do it then we can refuse to do it. The question that naturally arises is what happens if we consistently refuse. Jesus answers that question.

Your commentator has dreamed up a fantastic and illogical way to get around the implications of this passage - which he clearly cannot accept. To make the passage more acceptable he finds it necessary to transform the "branches" which Jesus had introduced as meaning His disciples into people connected to some different kind of tree.

The dialogue of John 15 as it is written is integrated and flows smoothly as Jesus continues to develop His teaching using the same imagery. From speaking of branches that abide in the vine He goes on to focus on those who do not and then to their fate. There is no point of transition where He changes direction and suddenly introduces the idea of a completely different species of trees and branches that have never been connected to Him.

Ezekiel 15:1-8 does talk about a tree and vines that are burned in a fire but he is speaking of Jerusalem which was in a state of rebellion. Obviously, Jerusalem HAD been a "domesticated vine" tended by God at one time in their history. However in falling away they had become "no different than all the other trees (nations) of the forest (the world)" This is comparable to the person who does not abide in Christ.

Apparently your commentator rests his entire case on his claim that Palestinian peasants do not burn vines. That is a slim basis upon which to establish an interpretation of a very well-known scripture. It is not logical, really, since the teaching is more like a parable than a detailed analysis of farming practices.

Hardly anyone listening to this story would automatically assume that Jesus must suddenly be talking about a DIFFERENT tree SIMPLY because its vines are being burned (and, as all of us Palestinians know vines do not burn). I rather doubt that part too. If a vine is cut off and dried in the sun (which is what withering implies) it will burn if the fire is hot enough, though it may not be good to use as kindling to start the fire.

Bearing fruit is not only about service. It is a sign that we have maintained a relationship of love for, faith in and obedience to Jesus. Faith is inseparable from love and obedience.

 

[Shasta]

I asked you a question.

Who are you to judge as wrong those who are dead to the condemning Law of God? Those who are beyond God's judgment, by His own decree? Who are YOU?

The word tells us to "prove all things hold fast that which is good" (1 Thessalonians 5:21) We do not need any special authority to do this. We believers are told to "exercise our spiritual senses" to "discern good and evil" (Hebrews 5:14).

BTW we are not "freed" from having to obey Him. If you think so read this:

He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience (endurance) in well-doing (doing good) seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give [B]eternal life[/B]; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury (Romans 2:6-8).

The final inheritance comes at the end of the race. According to this verse this reward is Eternal Life and it is received after we have patiently endured and continued to serve Christ in this life. This involves not only believing but OBEYING the truth. That is exactly what this verse is saying.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

You do get eternal life but that life comes from Him and you must remain in Him and continue in Him to enjoy it. It is permanently and irrevocably granted only when we are judged.



Remaining faithful to Christ, continuing to believe does not EARN salvation. It is just a necessary condition. In context, the verse you brought up that speaks of "gifts and callings" being "irrevocable" is about the Jewish people.

…28 Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. 29 For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable (Romans 11:29).

The particular Jews Paul was referring to were apostate with respect to the faith because they had rejected their Messiah. Paul says they had become enemies of the gospel; nevertheless their election to a special purpose remained (and still remains). This does not illustrate the idea that having a calling means you will never fall away. As a matter of fact, Paul used the Jew's apostasy to warn believers about what could happen to them.

20...They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either. 22 Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, IF you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

As I said before the word "continue" is an intensive form of the word "abide" which means "continue on with persistence. Now in your thinking this is probably optional but in this verse Paul says that not continuing means being cut off, the same fate as that of a branch that does not abide in the Vine.



The promise of eternal life is for everyone who believes. That is true but Jesus is not addressing the issue of those who depart from Christ because of an evil heart of unbelief. That side of the matter need to be addressed every time the promise is spoken. The whole balance of truth can be found in many scriptures. Did you know that no one in the Early Church back to the first century believed this eternal security doctrine, not even Augustine or, much later, Luther. Both of them believed Christians could apostasize. Your belief came ultimately from John Calvin.


The fact that Christ's words "Abide (remain, continue) in Me" is in the imperative mood means that it is a command which the will must obey. If what you were saying were true there would be no need to command any believer to do it. Their connection to Christ would be permanent and fixed but continuing on in Christ is a choice we must continue to make and if we can do it then we can refuse to do it. The question that naturally arises is what happens if we consistently refuse. Jesus answers that question.

Your commentator has dreamed up a fantastic and illogical way to get around the implications of this passage - which he clearly cannot accept. To make the passage more acceptable he finds it necessary to transform the "branches" which Jesus had introduced as meaning His disciples into people connected to some different kind of tree.

The dialogue of John 15 as it is written is integrated and flows smoothly as Jesus continues to develop His teaching using the same imagery. From speaking of branches that abide in the vine He goes on to focus on those who do not and then to their fate. There is no point of transition where He changes direction and suddenly introduces the idea of a completely different species of trees and branches that have never been connected to Him.

Ezekiel 15:1-8 does talk about a tree and vines that are burned in a fire but he is speaking of Jerusalem which was in a state of rebellion. Obviously, Jerusalem HAD been a "domesticated vine" tended by God at one time in their history. However in falling away they had become "no different than all the other trees (nations) of the forest (the world)" This is comparable to the person who does not abide in Christ.

Apparently your commentator rests his entire case on his claim that Palestinian peasants do not burn vines. That is a slim basis upon which to establish an interpretation of a very well-known scripture. It is not logical, really, since the teaching is more like a parable than a detailed analysis of farming practices.

Hardly anyone listening to this story would automatically assume that Jesus must suddenly be talking about a DIFFERENT tree SIMPLY because its vines are being burned (and, as all of us Palestinians know vines do not burn). I rather doubt that part too. If a vine is cut off and dried in the sun (which is what withering implies) it will burn if the fire is hot enough, though it may not be good to use as kindling to start the fire.

Bearing fruit is not only about service. It is a sign that we have maintained a relationship of love for, faith in and obedience to Jesus. Faith is inseparable from love and obedience.

That is my view also.

Oponents to that are taught by men who do nothing to make sure their salvation.

and condemn those who are.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

LA

 

[Danoh]

Lol - just goes two show that "two wrongs don't make a right" :chuckle:

 

[glorydaz]

The New Testament gives a lot of specific warnings to believers. You choose to disregard all of those solely because of the general way he addresses a Church? This provides proof that unconditional eternal security leads to antinomianism.

No, but doubters like you certainly see warnings everywhere. That is a serious lack of faith, and I sure wouldn't want to go through life doubting God's ability to keep me unto the day of redemption. It's impossible to stop believing in a TRUTH. If you ever stop believing, then you were not persuaded to begin with.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You do get eternal life but that life comes from Him and you must remain in Him and continue in Him to enjoy it.

No, the Christian receives eternal life the second when they believe. And the Lord Jesus says that those to whom he gives eternal life shall never perish:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).​

This is an "unconditional" statement. There are no conditions attached to what He says, as you imagine.

He doesn't say that He gives them eternal life and they shall never perish unless they do this or don't do that. You should know better than to pervert the meaning of the Lord Jesus' own words.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience (endurance) in well-doing (doing good) seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury (Romans 2:6-8).

These words of Paul are speaking about how men will be judged according to their works--"He will render to each one according to his works."

Not faith plus works, just works. And later Paul says this:

"wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20).​

No one is righteous before Him because all have sinned and come short of His glory:

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Ro.3:23).​

 

[God's Truth]

No, the Christian receives eternal life the second when they believe. And the Lord Jesus says that those to whom he gives eternal life shall never perish:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).​

This is an "unconditional" statement. There are no conditions attached to what He says, as you imagine.

He doesn't say that He gives them eternal life and they shall never perish unless they do this or don't do that. You should know better than to pervert the meaning of the Lord Jesus' own words.

Are you blind? I just gave you all these scripture in the other thread.

I see from the scriptures that we can receive the Holy Spirit after we repent and are baptized (Acts 2:38). We receive the Holy Spirit when God shows that he accepts us (Acts 15:8); for obeying, Acts 5:32, “...the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

Read these scriptures carefully. Jesus says they will receive the Holy Spirit if they obey. John 14:15-31 “If you love me, you will obey what I command. and I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever--- the Spirit of truth.

Jesus will not even live with you unless you obey. John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

Even Cornelius had an angel come to him to tell him to send for Peter, and that is when he and his whole household received the Holy Spirit because they were God fearing and righteous people, for that is to whom the message is sent. See Acts 10:22; Acts 10:35 and Acts 13:26.

 

[God's Truth]

When we obey Jesus' powerful words, we are eating from him, we are feeding on life to have life.

If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever, John 6:51. This bread is Jesus’ flesh, which he will give for the life of the world, John 6:53.

Unless we eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, we have no life in us. Jesus tells us the truth, if anyone obeys his word, he will never see death, John 8:51.

 

[TulipBee]

I said that the idea that the Calvinists teach, that "life" precedes "faith," is made up out of thin air. The following words of John makes it plain that "life" comes as a result of "faith" and not before faith:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

Only those who have nothing but thin air between their ears cannot understand this simple principle.

Faith happens before birth of a believer. Your kind of faith don't exist. Where is the word faith in that quote?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Where is the word faith in that quote?

What do you think the word "believing" is speaking about other than faith?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Are you blind? I just gave you all these scripture in the other thread.

You are the one who is blind because you quoted me saying the following and then you just IGNORED what I said:

The Christian receives eternal life the second when they believe (Jn.5:24). And the Lord Jesus says that those to whom he gives eternal life shall never perish:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).​

This is an "unconditional" statement. There are no conditions attached to what He says, as you imagine.

He doesn't say that He gives them eternal life and they shall never perish unless they do this or don't do that. You should know better than to pervert the meaning of the Lord Jesus' own words.

Since you have no intelligent answer to these facts you change the subject and then tryb to prove that the promise of the Lord Jesus at Acts 10:28 cannot be trusted.

Why do you refuse to address the words of the Lord Jesus there?

 

[beloved57]

When we obey Jesus' powerful words, we are eating from him, we are feeding on life to have life.

If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever, John 6:51. This bread is Jesus’ flesh, which he will give for the life of the world, John 6:53.

Unless we eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, we have no life in us. Jesus tells us the truth, if anyone obeys his word, he will never see death, John 8:51.

Eating is an activity of the living not of the dead.The eating and drinking here is Spiritually,it requires Spiritual life!

 

[Shasta]

No, but doubters like you certainly see warnings everywhere. That is a serious lack of faith, and I sure wouldn't want to go through life doubting God's ability to keep me unto the day of redemption. It's impossible to stop believing in a TRUTH. If you ever stop believing, then you were not persuaded to begin with.

I only see warnings where they exist. The fact that I do not have to do exegetical gymnastics to get around the warning shows that I am reading the scriptures correctly.

The idea that people who do not believe in OSAS are "doubters" that have a "serious lack of faith" is an argument ad hominem. I do not worry about turning from Christ any more than I worry that I will one day slip into adultery. You do not "slip" into adultery. You actively choose it and doing it requires violating the covenant I have and the love relationship I have with my wife.

None of the orthodox believers in the Early Church believed in OSAS, were they all doubters? Why did no orthodox believer, teacher, minister or apologist come up with this doctrine until the Sixteenth Century? Why did the Apostles not teach this very important truth to their followers?

Your statement "If you ever stop believing, then you were not persuaded to begin with" is circular reasoning that, like many logical fallacies, is not falsifiable. If a believer continues in his faith he is a true believer. If he does not then he was a false believer. I suppose if he repents after and turns back to his faith then he was a real believer after all. See, you can turn this argument any way you want.

 

[Shasta]

These words of Paul are speaking about how men will be judged according to their works--"He will render to each one according to his works."

Not faith plus works, just works. And later Paul says this:

"wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20).​

No one is righteous before Him because all have sinned and come short of His glory:

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Ro.3:23).​

You are laboring under the misconception that eternal life means that a quality of life is added to my life - the property of being everlasting. What we receive when we believe is like a title deed of inheritance which we hold provisionally in the present life but which will be cashed in only at the last time. It is similar to our adoption as Sons of God. We have the title and the relationship but it will not be fixed until our bodies are resurrected. If you do not accept this idea then you will have to do hermeneutical acrobatics to account for the many scriptures that present eternal life as something we are given when we meet the Savior face to face.

Here is another point. Salvation is free in that we give nothing in exchange that is of equal value to it. Getting grafted into the Vine is not a privilege anyone can earn. However, faith is not involuntary. It is a choice. It is obedience to the Spirit of God. In fact, faith and obedience are inseparable. Therefore after we take that first step of faith we are supposed to take another until those steps become a walk, a way of life. Our character and our activities are all part of what the Bible says are (true) "works" We must continue to lean upon Christ and maintain a relationship of faith, love and obedience all of which are inseparable.

Does this kind of walk gain a reward? It most certainly does and the scripture I cited as well as many others unequivocally say that the reward is final eternal life when we meet Jesus.

He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience (endurance) in well-doing (doing good) seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give ETERNAL LIFE; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury (Romans 2:6-8).

You see from this - the reward for "works" is not authority or anything else but eternal life

 

[God's Truth]

You are laboring under the misconception that eternal life means that a quality of life is added to my life - the property of being everlasting. What we receive when we believe is like a title deed of inheritance which we hold provisionally in the present life but which will be cashed in only at the last time. It is similar to our adoption as Sons of God. We have the title and the relationship but it will not be fixed until our bodies are resurrected. If you do not accept this idea then you will have to do hermeneutical acrobatics to account for the many scriptures that present eternal life as something we are given when we meet the Savior face to face.

Here is another point. Salvation is free in that we give nothing in exchange that is of equal value to it. Getting grafted into the Vine is not a privilege anyone can earn. However, faith is not involuntary. It is a choice. It is obedience to the Spirit of God. In fact, faith and obedience are inseparable. Therefore after we take that first step of faith we are supposed to take another until those steps become a walk, a way of life. Our character and our activities are all part of what the Bible says are (true) "works" We must continue to lean upon Christ and maintain a relationship of faith, love and obedience all of which are inseparable.

Does this kind of walk gain a reward? It most certainly does and the scripture I cited as well as many others unequivocally say that the reward is final eternal life when we meet Jesus.

He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience (endurance) in well-doing (doing good) seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give ETERNAL LIFE; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury (Romans 2:6-8).

You see from this - the reward for "works" is not authority or anything else but eternal life

Are you saying a person does not feel, or know they have eternal life now?

Are you saying a person only has to believe in Jesus to get saved?

Do you call obeying Jesus to get saved a disqualifier?

 

[God's Truth]

Eating is an activity of the living not of the dead.The eating and drinking here is Spiritually,it requires Spiritual life!

What don't you get about the scriptures plainly saying they PERISH BECAUSE they refused to love the truth.

NOWHERE does it say because they were not elected.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

 

[God's Truth]

You are the one who is blind because you quoted me saying the following and then you just IGNORED what I said:

The Christian receives eternal life the second when they believe (Jn.5:24).

I have explained this scripture to you more than once.

That scriptures says we have to believe---believe what? Believe that Jesus forgives sins. We have to believe that Jesus forgives sins that we repent of doing!

Faith alone is dead. What don't you get about God's Truth?

And the Lord Jesus says that those to whom he gives eternal life shall never perish:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).​

They have to STAY IN HIM to not perish!

This is an "unconditional" statement. There are no conditions attached to what He says, as you imagine.

He doesn't say that He gives them eternal life and they shall never perish unless they do this or don't do that. You should know better than to pervert the meaning of the Lord Jesus' own words.

All the many scriptures that say we have to 'believe'---those scriptures do not nullify/erase the MANY scriptures that say to obey.

Since you have no intelligent answer to these facts you change the subject and then tryb to prove that the promise of the Lord Jesus at Acts 10:28 cannot be trusted.

Why do you refuse to address the words of the Lord Jesus there?

I am speaking of the deeper things of God. I am explaining the truth. I am trying to help people know God better. You will NOT know God if you do not obey, and you will not even receive the Holy Spirit unless you obey.

I see from the scriptures that we can receive the Holy Spirit after we repent and are baptized (Acts 2:38). We receive the Holy Spirit when God shows that he accepts us (Acts 15:8); for obeying, Acts 5:32, “...the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

Read these scriptures carefully. Jesus says they will receive the Holy Spirit if they obey. John 14:15-31 “If you love me, you will obey what I command. and I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever--- the Spirit of truth.

Jesus will not even live with you unless you obey. John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

Even Cornelius had an angel come to him to tell him to send for Peter, and that is when he and his whole household received the Holy Spirit because they were God fearing and righteous people, for that is to whom the message is sent. See Acts 10:22; Acts 10:35 and Acts 13:26.

Can you read? Can you BELIEVE what the WRITTEN WORD OF GOD says?

 

[beloved57]

What don't you get about the scriptures plainly saying they PERISH BECAUSE they refused to love the truth.

NOWHERE does it say because they were not elected.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

excuse me did you read the post you just quoted ?

 

[God's Truth]

excuse me did you read the post you just quoted ?

NOWHERE ANYWHERE in the Bible does it say anything that Calvinists say---it just is NOT there.

God does NOT save unbelievers.