ECT Q for those who believe in salvation by grace thru faith in Christ w/o works

[dodge]

Hey, you added that last part on. :chuckle:

I honestly can't imagine anyone being able to look into the LIGHT of the glorious Gospel without seeing the darkness within themselves. At that point of exposure, it's impossible to deny, and any attempt to excuse it would be evidence of unbelief.

I had posted the same situation a few post before !

I agree and that is my problem with the not "willing" to stop sinning.

Have a blessed day.

 

[glorydaz]

I had posted the same situation a few post before !

I agree and that is my problem with the not "willing" to stop sinning.

Have a blessed day.

I should have read back instead of starting at the end. Sorry.

 

[dodge]

I should have read back instead of starting at the end. Sorry.

Nothing to be sorry for it was an honest mistake.

 

[Nihilo]

So you know that you already have eternal life and you know that you will never perish but you stand reason on its head and assert that you can perish!

You speak out of both sides of your mouth, friend!

Maybe.

This is one of my favorite responses to any post ever, first off.

Let me put it another way:
If you are saying that belief in Jesus Christ is the only way of salvation, yet you are saying that an unbeliever (who believed previously) is still saved, now you are saying there is another way of salvation that does not include belief in Christ. Whether that "way of salvation" is a profession of faith, or responding to an altar call, or praying the sinner's prayer, or whatever, it is still a different gospel.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV) This happened (2nd Corinthians 1:22 KJV 2nd Corinthians 5:5 KJV). He, the Holy Spirit, showed up, with heaven in His suitcase, and He unpacked it in your head, inside your brain, which is, after all the flesh. Ever since then it's been war. I imagine then that "walking in the Spirit" is akin to not grieving the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 4:30 KJV.

 

[Nihilo]

Again do you believe two homosexuals that proclaim their love and faith in God without repentance are born again ? I do NOT.

I honestly can't imagine anyone being able to look into the LIGHT of the glorious Gospel without seeing the darkness within themselves. At that point of exposure, it's impossible to deny, and any attempt to excuse it would be evidence of unbelief.

I agree and that is my problem with the not "willing" to stop sinning.

What if it's coveting? What if someone covets, and they also don't think that coveting is a big deal since nobody gets hurt from all their coveting.

Are they goin'a hell? :think:

 

[glorydaz]

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​

What if it's coveting? What if someone covets, and they also don't think that coveting is a big deal since nobody gets hurt from all their coveting.

Are they goin'a hell? :think:

I think we're talking about the moment of salvation not whether someone is going to hell or not. Unbelievers go to hell, and they go because of their unbelief, right? But, you bring a good point in the fact that recognizing those things that will be put off is not necessarily seen on our day of salvation.

I've known some that were unmarried and living together, and it was only later that they were convicted by the Lord to get married. So, maybe that could be true of anything. :idunno:

 

[Nihilo]

I think we're talking about the moment of salvation not whether someone is going to hell or not.

Dodge is talking about hell.

I've known some that were unmarried and living together, and it was only later that they were convicted by the Lord to get married. So, maybe that could be true of anything. :idunno:

I don't think shacking up means the couple are not saved. It doesn't mean that they are though either.

 

[Danoh]

Even within "MAD" some clearly, either do not understand the difference between once for all justification, and the lifelong process that is sanctification...or simply find it inconvenient to their duplicity.

Romans 6, for example, begins on the very premise that the sanctification process is not a once for all done deal - slave to righteousness from thereon out.

Were it - the Apostle Paul would not have gone into said issue so repeatedly throughout Romans thru Philemon.

While just as clearly, others screw it all up with their works for salvation notions, and or as its' evidence, and or for its' maintenance.

 

[Nihilo]

the lifelong process that is sanctification

1st Timothy 4:8 (KJV)
" For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. "

Galatians 3:3 (KJV)
" Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? "

 

[Danoh]

1st Timothy 4:8 (KJV)
" For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. "

Galatians 3:3 (KJV)
" Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? "

It is a worthwhile study all its' own.

An ever wondrous, ever ongoing one.

 

[dodge]

​

​

What if it's coveting? What if someone covets, and they also don't think that coveting is a big deal since nobody gets hurt from all their coveting.

Are they goin'a hell? :think:

I have known folks that later in life realized they had only taken out an insurance policy JUST IN CASE, and that is not faith.

If you approach God not "willing" to stop sinning and asked God to help you with your UN-willingness that would be a different story;however, many have no intention of even trying to stop know sin in their life aren't approaching God in faith they are taking out an insurance policy just in case.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So if one has no desire to stop sinning or has the will to keep sinning you really believe they are serious about believing, trusting , and following God ? I do not.

Since the LORD knows the heart of man He knows if someone has true faith. And immediately upon believing the gospel that believer receives eternal life. And the lord Jesus said that all those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish.

So upon believing a person is eternally saved. Nothing which he might be willing to do or not to do after that can change his eternal security in anyway.

But you seem to think that if that saved person is not willing to stop sinning then that person can perish despite the assurance of the Lord Jesus to the contrary.

Is that what you think?

 

[Derf]

Paul was probably the Apostle most concerned with the Church's behavior (e.g. among many, Colossians 3:5 KJV and following), but even he, when contemplating your very thought here, said Galatians 2:17 (KJV), not that, "We should stop," even though he was probably the Apostle most concerned with the Church's behavior; he wasn't teaching that behavior impacts the Church's salvation; not the Apostle who wrote 1st Corinthians 15:3 (KJV) and Colossians 2:13-14 (KJV).

You mean Paul, the apostle who wrote "What shall we say then, shall we continue in sin? God forbid!"?

But what should we not trust in ever? See Philippians 3:3-4 (KJV) and following; see John 6:63 (KJV) and Galatians 2:21 (KJV) and Galatians 3:3 (KJV). 1st Corinthians 15:3 (KJV)

No argument here! we should never trust our works to save us. Including a work of profession of faith or a "one night stand" with Christ, if I could be so vulgar.

I grew up around people who were sometimes very passive aggressive, and who passive aggressively used the words of Scripture as bats with which to hit people, people who are just much His servants as they are. (People for the most part don't consciously know they're doing it, but they do puff up with pride when doing so.)
Not "will have" but we have already, we are already home. Colossians 3:2-3 (KJV) Ephesians 2:6 (KJV)
A shipwreck doesn't mean that the journey is over, as Paul knew. Acts 27:41 (KJV) and following.

Point taken about the shipwreck. But if it's a journey that some leave (jump ship??) they don't reach the destination. And I apply that not to the behavior, but to the belief. If our belief is different now than when we first believed, then we are "judged" by our faith in Christ NOW, not by our faith in Christ a year ago or 10 years ago.

The works, all of which we are to commit to our Lord Jesus (1 Cor 10:31), are indicative of, rather than resulting in, our salvation. Imagine, then, for a moment, that you wanted to murder someone. Can you honestly say you are murdering them for God's glory? (Not counting various justified, rightly or wrongly, assassinations or attempts believers have made over the years, like Dietrich Bonhoeffer's or Ehud's in Judges 3 (in reverse order).)

 

[Jerry Shugart]

And I apply that not to the behavior, but to the belief. If our belief is different now than when we first believed, then we are "judged" by our faith in Christ NOW, not by our faith in Christ a year ago or 10 years ago.

The LORD knows our hearts and if we truly believe then we receive eternal life the moment we believe. And the Lord Jesus says that those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish.

Therefore, we know that once we believe that we enjoy eternal security.

 

[Derf]

​

This is one of my favorite responses to any post ever, first off.
Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV) This happened (2nd Corinthians 1:22 KJV 2nd Corinthians 5:5 KJV). He, the Holy Spirit, showed up, with heaven in His suitcase, and He unpacked it in your head, inside your brain, which is, after all the flesh. Ever since then it's been war. I imagine then that "walking in the Spirit" is akin to not grieving the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 4:30 KJV.

The same John that wrote:
He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. [1Jo 2:9 KJV]

Also wrote this in the previous chapter:
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.[1Jo 1:6, 7 KJV]

Notice the "we" in the second passage! He is including himself--John, the apostle whom Jesus loved! That if even he were to hate his brother, the blood of Jesus Christ would not be cleansing (or have cleansed--I'm not sure) him from all sin! Is John not cleansed already? How can his words apply to himself here? Faith is indicated by our actions, just as it was Abraham's, when he "believed God" and it was reckoned as righteousness. How did Abraham "believe God"? He went about doing what God told him to do, believing God would do what He said He would do. Perfectly obeying? No, though he did seem to get better over time at doing what God wanted him to. I hope we all get better at obeying our Lord.

 

[Derf]

The LORD knows our hearts and if we truly believe then we receive eternal life the moment we believe. And the Lord Jesus says that those to whom He gives eternal life will never perish.

Therefore, we know that once we believe that we enjoy eternal security.

Ah! if God then knows our hearts from any moment in our lives through all eternity, then we might as well give in to the Calvinists, for God can't change what He already knows to be true in the future, can He? And to have the power to change anything that He already knows, He must have authored it from the beginning, so that He doesn't have to change it, except in the course of it working out the way He ordained it in the first place. He ordains the evil, He ordains the good, all without having to know it ahead of time, because He makes it all happen.

But a free will, which I believe you ascribe to, seems to require the ability to reject God, even, doesn't it? Is our will freer before or after we believe. If after, then you've answered the survey question in the affirmative. If before, then you call Jesus a liar when He said that the truth would make us free.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Ah! if God then knows our hearts from any moment in our lives through all eternity, then we might as well give in to the Calvinists, for God can't change what He already knows to be true in the future, can He?

So what point are you trying to make? That the LORD does not know our heart and therefore He does not really know who has true faith? Or that once a person is given eternal life they can perish despite the fact that the Lord Jesus says otherwise.

But a free will, which I believe you ascribe to, seems to require the ability to reject God, even, doesn't it? Is our will freer before or after we believe.

So again what point are you trying to make? That it is not true that the moment when a person believes He does not possess eternal life? Or that those who are been given eternal life will never perish?

 

[Shasta]

You treat "eternal life" as if it were something which people take ownership of and permanently possess as one might possess a commodity...but this is not what scripture says. Until the last judgement we possess His life provisionally not permanently. Aside from this, we cannot have life at all apart from Him. Jesus Christ Himself IS the life and our hope of glory. We "have" life derivatively as we continue to live in Him.

When Jesus spoke on this subject He told His disciples,

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing (John 15:4-5)

The branches are dependent on the vine and receive the life-giving sap on an ongoing basis. As they continue to remain in the Vine they continue to experience God's life, which is eternal life. The very fact that "abide" is a present tense verb in the imperative mood indicates that (1) we have a part in "remaining and "continuing" in Christ and (2) we could refuse to abide if we so chose. This is evident in verse 6:

6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned (John 15:6).

This same metaphor which shows eternal life as something living and ongoing (rather than a static legal state) can be found in the preceding chapter:

14 But whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a fount of water springing up to eternal life.” (John 14:14)

Had this scripture gone no further than the underlined sentence your idea, that eternal life is a one time permanent deposit would be supported. The rest of the verse presents the life of God as an ongoing process in us.

I know your camp tends to slice and dice the scriptures and to remove those parts that are inconsistent with your theology. I have always had more respect for your handling of scriptures than I have for most others in your camp. Still, I feel compelled to put something down from the Apostle Paul on this subject:

20 ...Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again (Rom. 11:20-23).

The word "continue" (epimeno) is a derivative of the same word "abide" that was used in John's gospel. The epi (on) has the effect of intensifying the word so that it emphasizes continuing on with persistence. The language of cutting off also parallels Jesus' remarks. The Roman believers are being told that they would see the "goodness" of the fulfilled promise only IF they continued in the word that had saved them. In context it means not turning from the faith and falling into unbelief. The fact that they needed to be warned shows that apostasy was just as possible for believers as it had been for the Jews who rejected Jesus.

 

[Shasta]

Is being willing to clean up one's life, to turn from sin, or to stop sinning a required part of getting saved?

That would be called "repentance"

 

[musterion]

That would be called "repentance"

Please demonstrate how you know repent is defined as "stop sinning."