Purpose of Water Baptism

[turbosixx]

The word covenant nor testament is in the Greek text of Hebrews 9:18.

Thanks for making me think, I hadn't looked at the Greek text to see. I believe it's not in that verse nor several verses prior because it was already established that it's a covenant, for example 7:22 does used the Greek word I will show below. The fact that he is talking about the first one and the new one should be another indicator they are both the same thing. Paul says there are two covenants in Gal. 4:21-31.

What is the Greek word for covenant?

What is the Greek word for testament?

I believe this is Strongs. It looks like they are both from the same Greek word. Here is the word used in 7:22 This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.
diathéké: testament, will, covenant
Original Word: διαθήκη, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: diathéké
Phonetic Spelling: (dee-ath-ay'-kay)
Short Definition: a covenant, will, testament
Definition: (a) a covenant between two parties, (b) (the ordinary, everyday sense [found a countless number of times in papyri]) a will, testament.

At any rate, don't you dare check the KJV.

I don't because I'm not proficient with 400 year old Kings English. I will reference several versions including the NKJV.

 

[jamie]

Paul says there are two covenants in Gal. 4:21-31.

Since Paul said there are two covenants, which one was in the ark of the covenant?

 

[turbosixx]

Since Paul said there are two covenants, which one was in the ark of the covenant?

Neither, the ark of the covenant is a box that held the stone tablets.

 

[jamie]

Neither, the ark of the covenant is a box that held the stone tablets.

So Paul is not referring to covenants is he?

How many testaments do we have?

 

[turbosixx]

So Paul is not referring to covenants is he?

I believe he is he says there are two covenants. One from Mt. Sinai which is obviously the Mosaical law and so the other is Christs law. Here is the passage in Galatians.
Gal. 4:21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23 But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written,


“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”

28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30 But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31 So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

What Paul is dealing with in Galatians is people wanting to go back to the old law. If the old law has been done away with then that means there is a new law.

How many testaments do we have?

I only see Paul dealing with two.

 

[jamie]

I only see Paul dealing with two.

A covenant does not require blood, a testament does.

Moses said, "This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you." (Hebrews 9:20 KJV)

The Old Testament was established at Mount Sinai through Moses and the New Testament was established at Calvary.

"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance." (Hebrews 9:15 KJV)

 

[Jacob]

Today baptism is almost a thing of the past. I was wondering what is the purpose of water baptism from other peoples perspective. I would like to know what scriptures lead you to that conclusion.
If your understanding isn't based on scripture, where did you get it from? Pastor? Parent?

Shalom.

I was taught baptism by immersion, and in Judaism it is without anyone touching you. I am speaking also of a mikvah, a body of fresh water.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[turbosixx]

A covenant does not require blood, a testament does.

Moses said, "This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you." (Hebrews 9:20 KJV)

The Old Testament was established at Mount Sinai through Moses and the New Testament was established at Calvary.

"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance." (Hebrews 9:15 KJV)

Ok, help me to understand what is called a covenant that was made at Mt. Sinai ch. 8 if later in ch. 9 something different is called the testament at Mt. Sinai.

Heb. 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.KJV

I'm curious why you're using the KJV?

 

[turbosixx]

Shalom.

I was taught baptism by immersion, and in Judaism it is without anyone touching you. I am speaking also of a mikvah, a body of fresh water.

Shalom.

Jacob

Where you taught anything else about baptism?

 

[Jacob]

Where you taught anything else about baptism?

Shalom.

I know that it can be in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, or in Jesus' name, but that it is not a ritual.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[jamie]

I'm curious why you're using the KJV?

Covenant and testament come from the same Greek word. A covenant is an agreement, a testament is a will.

The provisions of a will are not in effect until the testator's death.

"For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives." (Hebrews 9:16-17)

I used the KJV because it is a better translation in this case. The covenant at Mount Sinai was a testament according to scripture. The covenant established at Calvary is a newer testament. There is an Old Testament and there is a New Testament.

There will be a new covenant with Israel and Judah. The two groups will be united into a united kingdom. But their new covenant is not a testament.

The Old Testament was for the Father's adopted firstborn. The New Testament is for the Father's begotten firstborn of which Jesus is the first of the firstfruits pictured by Pentecost.

 

[turbosixx]

There will be a new covenant with Israel and Judah. The two groups will be united into a united kingdom.

Jesus said the kingdom was at hand. Do you believe he established it?

 

[oatmeal]

So after Acts 1:5 all we see is baptism of the Holy Spirit? Could you please show this Holy Spirit baptism after Acts 1:5. I only know of one other instance and it was a special occasion as was the one in Acts 1.

I see more than one instance of water baptism after Acts 2.

The calling of the baptism in Acts 2:1-4 as foretold by Jesus Christ is called the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

After that original outpouring of the gift of the Holy Spirit, they began to call it baptism in the name of Jesus Christ as early as Acts 2:38, the same day!

We are baptized in all that Jesus Christ accomplished from the inside out!

Water baptism of John was a godly symbolic gesture but was replaced by a far greater baptism, first called the baptism in the Holy Spirit and later called baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

If a person's salvation, ie, eternal life and the living of it was dependent on the outward act of getting wet or the inward regeneration in the name of Jesus Christ, which would you choose?

I choose Jesus Christ as I am sure anyone thinking Christian would.

But not all followed the apostles' doctrine closely.

Those believers that did received godly results, ie, the lame man of Acts 3

Those believers that strayed, ie, Ananias and Sapphira missed out on God's blessings.

Those that held onto water baptism and those that continued to follow the law regarding circumcision and other parts of the law burdened themselves unnecessarily and unprofitably.

They were distracted by the past.

Thus some did continue with water baptism although it was unnecessary to do so. We see the Ethiopian eunuch being baptized in water, but all it did for him was get him wet.

Maybe it satisfied his heart to do the law somehow, but it was unnecessary for his salvation.

Water baptism is not harmful, but if it distracts from what Jesus Christ did for us, then it indeed, is, at the least, an impediment to our spiritual growth into maturity. We end up depending on water instead of Jesus Christ's accomplishments and the will of God we are to be following.

 

[jamie]

Jesus said the kingdom was at hand. Do you believe he established it?

Not yet.

 

[turbosixx]

The calling of the baptism in Acts 2:1-4 as foretold by Jesus Christ is called the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

After that original outpouring of the gift of the Holy Spirit, they began to call it baptism in the name of Jesus Christ as early as Acts 2:38, the same day!

We are baptized in all that Jesus Christ accomplished from the inside out!

Water baptism of John was a godly symbolic gesture but was replaced by a far greater baptism, first called the baptism in the Holy Spirit and later called baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

If a person's salvation, ie, eternal life and the living of it was dependent on the outward act of getting wet or the inward regeneration in the name of Jesus Christ, which would you choose?

I choose Jesus Christ as I am sure anyone thinking Christian would.

But not all followed the apostles' doctrine closely.

Those believers that did received godly results, ie, the lame man of Acts 3

Those believers that strayed, ie, Ananias and Sapphira missed out on God's blessings.

Those that held onto water baptism and those that continued to follow the law regarding circumcision and other parts of the law burdened themselves unnecessarily and unprofitably.

They were distracted by the past.

Thus some did continue with water baptism although it was unnecessary to do so. We see the Ethiopian eunuch being baptized in water, but all it did for him was get him wet.

Maybe it satisfied his heart to do the law somehow, but it was unnecessary for his salvation.

Water baptism is not harmful, but if it distracts from what Jesus Christ did for us, then it indeed, is, at the least, an impediment to our spiritual growth into maturity. We end up depending on water instead of Jesus Christ's accomplishments and the will of God we are to be following.

I'm sorry but I strongly disagree. Please consider my arguments.

I would suggest to you that baptism in the name of Jesus is a very very important detail and completes the conversion process.
If what you say is true then this passage doesn't make sense. Apollos preaches Jesus to men in Ephesus but he is ignorant of one detail, baptism in Jesus' name. He only knows John’s baptism.
Acts 18:24 Now a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus; and he was mighty in the Scriptures. 25 This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus, being acquainted only with the baptism of John;
These men believed in Jesus and got wet being baptized into John’s baptism but not in the name of Jesus.

Later when Paul comes into town, he asks them if they received the Holy Spirit “when they believed”. When he finds out they didn’t even know there was a Holy Spirit, he asks them “into what then were you baptized”? If what you say is true, he never should have asked this question.
Acts 19:2 He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.”

I would suggest to you the reason he asks this question is because you can’t receive the Holy Spirit until you are baptized “in the name of Jesus”. Baptism and the Holy Spirit go together. It’s another conversation to show that from scripture but here are a couple.
Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 10:47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”

If we continue reading this passage, we see it supports the view that you can’t receive the Holy Spirit until you are baptized in the name of Jesus.
So when Paul finds out they have been baptized into John’s baptism, he doesn’t go ahead and give them the Holy Spirit. First, he baptizes them in the name of Jesus then gives them the Holy Spirit.
19:4 Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
Paul didn't give them the Holy Spirit until he baptized them in the name of Jesus.


Jesus instructed the apostles on how to make Christians and it was baptizing in the name of.
Matt. 28: 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit
If that is how we become a Christian, doesn’t it stand to reason that Satan will lie and say it isn’t necessary?

 

[turbosixx]

Not yet.

He said some would not die till they saw it.
Matt. 16:28 “ Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Jesus proclaimed and sent men out to proclaim it was at hand?
Matt. 10:7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’

Help me to understand how he could say these things if they weren't true.

 

[jamie]

Help me to understand how he could say these things if they weren't true.

The kingdom is at hand, it's a close as your last breath.

Jesus took Peter, James and John up on a high mountain and showed them Moses and Elijah in a vision.

 

[turbosixx]

The kingdom is at hand, it's a close as your last breath.

I don't see how that agrees with this verse.
Matt. 16:28 “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

 

[jamie]

I don't see how that agrees with this verse.
Matt. 16:28 “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

They saw it in a vision, not literally.

 

[turbosixx]

They saw it in a vision, not literally.

Is there a passage for that? If it's the transfiguration, I don't see how that is the kingdom.