musterion
Well-known member
Did you sign up to scrub the baptismal tank, for Jesus?
ECT Proof: You were only forgiven of your past sins!
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Did you sign up to scrub the baptismal tank, for Jesus?
oatmeal
Well-known member
Well I am still waiting for your answer to my question.
You claim that my questthat's wrong but OF COURSE YOU DO NOT SHOW HOW BECAUSE YOU CANNOT.
Why cannot we fellowship with the Holy Spirit?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I have said many times on this forum that during the present dispensation there is only one baptism and that one is the baptism performed by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor.12:13).
Now tell me why you think that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works despite the Lord Jesus' words spoken to them which proves otherwise:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).
How can you say that you believe on Him but at the same time deny what He said?
Besides that, you continue to refuse to give your interpretation of the meaning of those words spoken by the Lord Jesus.
Why is that?
musterion
Well-known member
Told you. There's no way to correctly answer an incorrect question built upon a false premise. To try to answer it as written would only confirm your error.
musterion
Well-known member
That belief required lawkeeping.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
If keeping the commandments was a requirement for salvation then keeping the commandments must necessarily contribute to that person's salvation. But since all of the Jews who lived under the law sinned by breaking a commandmant then they were guilty of all (Jas.2:10).
Perhaps you can explain how being guilty of all can possibly contribute toanyone's salvation.
Once again you prove that you don't believe the Lord Jesus when He said the following to the Jews who lived under the law:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
According to you the Lord Jesus' words by themselves were not sufficient to bring spiritual life to anyone who lived under the law because those who lived under the law had to keep the commandments in addition to believing in order to receive any spiritual blessings.
musterion
Well-known member
Their belief required lawkeeping.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Here is what Paul said about David's salvation and David lived under the law:
"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:5-8).
Then Paul continues speaking about the "blessedness" of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works and makes it plain that the circumcision receives this blessing:
"Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also?" (Ro.4:9).
You deny Paul's plain words just like you deny the words of the Lord Jesus when He told the Jews who lived under the law that His words results in spiritual life:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You call yourself a Christian but you deny His words which He spoke to those who lived under the law:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
According to you His words by themselves were insufficient to bring spiritual life to the Jews who lived under he law because you deny that those who believed were saved by faith alone.
Let us look what the lord Jesus told the Jews who lived under the law here:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.
In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:
"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."
Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."
So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life.
The Lord Jesus' words have no meaning for you because His words are life and spirit and you cannot understand spiritual things:
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1Cor.2:14).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Before any of those who lived under the law could be baptized with water they had to believe, as witnessed by the following exchange between Philip and the eunuch:
"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" (Acts 8:36-37).
Before the eunuch was baptized with water he was already "born of God" because he believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God:
"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God..For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1,4-5).
There can be no doubt that the eunuch received eternal life and was "born of God" before he was baptized with water so we can know that being baptized with water does not contribute in any way to anyone being saved. If you are born of God you would understand these things but unfortunately you remain a natural man who is unable to understand spiritual things.
Besides that the lord Jesus told the Jews who lived under the law that His words are spirit and they are life:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
According to you His words by themselves were insufficient to bring spiritual life to the Jews who lived under he law because you deny that those who believed were saved by faith alone.
You call yourself a Christian but you deny Christ's own words over and over and over again. You are an embarrassment to those who actually believe what the Lord Jesus taught.
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Now you are trying to change the subject in the hope that no one will notice that you didn't even try to answer my points which prove that you are ignorant of the teaching of the Scriptures and have nothing but contempt for the plain words of the Lord Jesus when He said the following to those who lived under the law:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
According to you His words by themselves were insufficient to bring spiritual life to the Jews who lived under he law because you deny that those who believed were saved by faith alone.
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musterion
Well-known member
No, because you keep insisting it's the same.
He was speaking to a special people under a unique Law system for a specific purpose. Not to you.
What do you not understand?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Why do you continue to run and hide from the verses which I have quoted?
It is becoming clear that your real agenda is to pour contempt of the words of the Lord Jesus and to convince others that He cannot be believed or trusted.
"And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works" (2 Cor.11:14-15).
oatmeal
Well-known member
You claim that there is a false premise.
But what is this false premise?
We can fellowship with the Father and with His son and with fellow believets. Where is the Holy Spirit? Why can't we fellowship with him? Why is he not listed?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Now you are trying to change the subject in the hope that no one will notice that you didn't even try to answer my points which prove that you are ignorant of the teaching of the Scriptures and have nothing but contempt for the plain words of the Lord Jesus when He said the following to those who lived under the law:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
According to you His words by themselves were insufficient to bring spiritual life to the Jews who lived under he law because you deny that those who believed were saved by faith alone.
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