ECT Proof: You were only forgiven of your past sins!

[musterion]

I am not big on personal opinions and personal interpretations of scripture.

Because you're Catholic, I get it. You've been trained to not trust what you can read for yourself in the Bible unless the heirarchy says it's okay.

But I asked you a simple Bible question you can answer from your own Bible -- there's no interpretation or opinion or hierarchy needed.

The covenant said God would use Abraham to father a nation through which the world would be blessed. But he and his wife took matters into their own hands. The result was Ishmael, not the promised son of the covenant.

Did that cause God to cancel the covenant?

 

[TrumpTrainCA]

Because you're Catholic, I get it. You've been trained to not trust what you can read for yourself in the Bible unless the heirarchy says it's okay.

I have yet to reveal my persuasion here. Actually I am very orthodox. But all the same, I believe what the councils teach and the teaching authority of the bishops. It has nothing to do with being "trained to not trust what you can read for yourself". That is quite insulting. Neither Orthodoxy or Catholicism teach such a thing, as they both encourage Bible study and provide study Bibles and interpretive tools.

On the subject of covenants I am not the expert, and I doubt that anyone here is. I offered my opinion, and I am pretty sure I am correct.

 

[musterion]

I have yet to reveal my persuasion here. Actually I am very orthodox.

No real difference, then.

But all the same, I believe what the councils teach and the teaching authority of the bishops. It has nothing to do with being "trained to not trust what you can read for yourself". That is quite insulting. Neither Orthodoxy or Catholicism teach such a thing, as they both encourage Bible study and provide study Bibles and interpretive tools.

On the subject of covenants I am not the expert, and I doubt that anyone here is. I offered my opinion, and I am pretty sure I am correct.

You're not.

One more time:

Does the Bible say that God canceled the deal with Abraham because he and his wife took it upon themselves to produce an heir without God's intervention?

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

The Abrahamic Covenant had to be Unilateral because Abraham was in a deep sleep when God made the covenant Himself with no other party participating. A Unilateral Covenant cannot be Conditional. That’s why there was a Mosaic Covenant added, and it didn’t disannul the Abrahamic.

 

[musterion]

True.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Do you know what it means to "live under the Law", Jerry?

Deuteronomy 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us.​

Do you not know what the word "if" means?--"IF we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God."

IF they didn't observe to do all the commandments they WERE GUILTY OF ALL (Jas.2:10).

The Lord Jesus told the Jews that none of them kept the law (Jn.7:19) so everyone of them were guilty of all.

You are so lacking in spiritual discernment that you think that being guilty of all somehow contributed to their salvation.

The verse you quoted says that it will be "our righteousness" if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us.

The following verse describes the "self- righteousness" of all the Jews who lived under the law:

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as FILTHY RAGS; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away" (Isa.64:6).​

Since you refuse to believe the Lord Jesus' plain words spoken to the Jews who lived under the law as to how they were saved you lack the righteousness which is of God:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6;47).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

The verdict which you will receive at the great White Throne is: "You righteousness is as filthy rages--depart from Me because I never knew you!"

 

[TrumpTrainCA]

You're not.

Except that I am.

 

[glorydaz]

Do you not know what the word "if" means?--"IF we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God."

IF they didn't observe to do all the commandments they WERE GUILTY OF ALL (Jas.2:10).

The Lord Jesus told the Jews that none of them kept the law (Jn.7:19) so everyone of them were guilty of all.

You are so lacking in spiritual discernment that you think that being guilty of all somehow contributed to their salvation.

The verse you quoted says that it will be "our righteousness" if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us.

The following verse describes the "self- righteousness" of all the Jews who lived under the law:

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as FILTHY RAGS; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away" (Isa.64:6).​

Since you refuse to believe the Lord Jesus' plain words spoken to the Jews who lived under the law as to how they were saved you lack the righteousness which is of God:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6;47).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

The verdict which you will receive at the great White Throne is: "You righteousness is as filthy rages--depart from Me because I never knew you!"

I guess you forgot about the sacrifices that were required of the Jews. :chuckle:

 

[musterion]

I guess you forgot about the sacrifices that were required of the Jews. :chuckle:

Funny how people can insist faith alone was the way believing Jews becoming right with God during the prior dispensation, even though Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38 and 1 Jn 1:9 all demonstrate something more was required of them.

 

[glorydaz]

Funny how people can insist faith alone was the way believing Jews becoming right with God during the prior dispensation, even though Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38 and 1 Jn 1:9 all demonstrate something more was required of them.

I know. Paul even spoke of the difference.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law:


Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I guess you forgot about the sacrifices that were required of the Jews. :chuckle:

You forgot that the blood of those sacrifices didn't take away sin. :chuckle:

You never knew that the only thing that was required for the Jews who lived under the law in order to be saved was faith, as witnessed by the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to them:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6;47).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

The reason why you never knew these truths is because a person must pass from spiritual death unto spiritual life before that person can understand spiritual things. The Lord Jesus said:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).​

Poor, poor, pitiful you because you remain spiritually dead as witnessed by the fact that you cannot even understand the simple words of the Lord Jesus Christ.

"The LORD Almighty has a day in store for all the proud and lofty, for all that is exalted (and they will be humbled)" (Isa.2:12).​

 

[musterion]

You forgot that the blood of those sacrifices didn't take away sin. :chuckle:

Her point was that they were required and non-negotiable.

Do you deny that?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Her point was that they were required and non-negotiable.

Do you deny that?

I deny that they were necessary for salvation because the Lord Jesus made it plain to those who can understand spiritual things that only faith was necessary for salvation:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6;47).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Your ideas directly contradict the Lord's words because you say that his word alone were not sufficient to bring spiritual life to anyone because before they could receive spiritual life they had to believe and then offer sacrifices.

 

[musterion]

I deny that they were necessary for salvation

Then you call Mark 16:16 a lie.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Then you call Mark 16:16 a lie.

Unlike you I do not run and hide from the words of the Lord Jesus.

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mk.16:16).​

Here the Lord is not saying that a requirement for salvation is baptism with water, but instead He is describing those who will be saved. This is similiar to the following words of the Lord:

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life" (Mt.19:29).​

Here the Lord says that those who have forsaken their families will receive everlasting life, but surely no one will argue that this is a requirement for salvation. Instead, the Lord is merely describing many who will be saved. Therefore we can understand that at Mark 16:16 the Lord Jesus is merely describing those who will be saved.

The Lord Jesus told the Jews who lived under the law how they can be saved:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6;47).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

You cannot understand the Lord's simple words because you are not capable of understanding spiritual things:

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor.2:14).​

 

[musterion]

He is describing those who will be saved.

Yep, by believing AND by being water baptized.

That's what He said.

Here, try this:

Someone back then could be water baptized and not believe = not saved.

Someone back then could believe and not be water baptized = not saved.

Hence Acts 2:38. Believe He's the Messiah and be ritually washed for national priesthood.

I have no idea how you cannot see that that's the plain meaning of what He told them.

 

[Sherman]

We need a fresh start when discussing this topic. When you start over, make sure you address the subject matter instead of personally attacking the TOL member. There is no reason we can discuss this in a civil manner.