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Totton Linnet

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That's a warped interpretation of Paul's words in Romans 7 to suit a doctrine of convenience. I can certainly choose not to murder someone and I can certainly choose to believe in the One True God or He would not have ordered us to make that choice in Deuteronomy 30:19. What's the point of confession and repentance if we have no free will? What is the point of Yeshua's words in John 15 if we have no free will? Why should we bother to wash our robes if there is no free will? Why should we believe anything at all if we have no free will....what difference does it make? Without free will we're just a bunch of pre-programmed robots and that is EXACTLY what the doctrine of the elect states so I don't know why you have such an aversion to it.

You do not believe you are elect?

It certainly is an interpretation of Ro.7. Paul said his will was to do good but the evil he did not want to do was what he in fact did.

He willed to do good but he did evil. Thanks be to God Jesus set him free from his body of death....that is what YOU need, to be set free.

But like the Joos of old you prefer the law. Stiff necked and rebellious.

....well done for not murdering anyone...at least not physically
 

Totton Linnet

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Free will is about choice. If we don't have free will then why aren't we all out murdering, stealing, fornicating, etc? God said that the rules He gave us weren't too hard for us to obey so why didn't we obey them? Because we chose not to. Obedience and disobedience is a choice. If we have no free will, why do we require God's Grace and Mercy?

Who said you are not out murdering, stealing and fornicating?

The law is not a box of chocolates, where you can choose which one to break. If you break one you break them all

God's law was not too hard....what part of law do you understand as freewill?.... man chose to rebel because Satan deceived him into believing he had freewill.

He soon found out he didn't.
 
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Town Heretic

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Christians do not will to sin, their will is to be holy, so when we sin we are acting against our will, which you claim is free.
I think you're mystifying something that isn't. Will is nothing more or less than a conscious decision exercised. So we don't desire to sin in principle, but we yield to it, to temptation, which can attack our intellectual vanity or our sensual inclinations as a creature of biology and we move, intentionally, into that error. Or, to borrow from my answer to the apostate about doubt, sin isn't something that happens to us, it's a choice.

Again, if our choices aren't freely made then we aren't responsible for them. If those choices aren't ours then the responsibility for them rests with God and God cannot defy His own nature, which is purely, perfectly good.

It proves that our will is not free but in bondage.

Paul says before we came to God we were in bondage....Christ set us free
That's a separate thing. But we are called by God into relation, so that none might perish but all might have life everlasting and the abundance of our intended design in this life. Unfortunately, being willful, not all accept the gift.

What part of bondage do you interpret as freewill?
We are born in sin, slaves to our senses and our limitations, which root us in the empirical and move us toward the sating of whatever desires are found there and which move us, ego and appetite. We can choose to have or do, we can even choose to do what others looking on and we ourselves would call good. But we cannot be good and will not escape our natures, our willful missteps. And so grace.

if we had freewill why would Christ need to die?
If we lacked free will there'd be no need, being created to do what we do and be as we are. It is our rebellion in purpose that requires the cross, as God loves us and love is, we are taught, self sacrificing. Is there a clearer example of that perfect love than the cross?

His death and resurrection is what sets us free.
From the judgment of our willful acts, to be sure.

To say you have freewill means you can choose to do righteousness and not sin....nobody who ever lived [bar One] ever did but still we kid ourselves, or rather we allow the devil to kid us.
I can demonstrate the error of that this way. A man may say to a woman, not his wife, offering herself in sin, "No". And that same man may think of someone later, cutting in front of him in traffic, a thought that is contrary to God's desire. And the self same mechanism by which he said "No" existed when he said, in essence and to the temptation of that thought, "Yes" and yet we have two distinctly different choices. One that does not require anything of grace and serves the good and the other that requires it and serves a wrong purpose.

It is entirely because we can choose to deny sin, to turn from temptation but do not that we are condemned justly and it is our willful leaning into our imperfection, against what we know to be the good, that requires grace.

Paul says we are either servant of righteousness or servants of sin.
He's right. But my son can love me, serve me and err. Sometimes willfully. There is that which we will, but sometimes do not and that which we would do but sometimes fail, to borrow and amend.

What part of servant do you understand as freewill?
Hopefully the above explains my contextual sense of the relation between man and sin and grace.

But to be servants of righteousness is our perfect freedom,
To be sure, to be free of the fetters of that failure and its condemnation.

for that is what we are created for. It is our true self.
I think so also. First we are the objects upon which God can perfectly express His nature. And in that expression, through grace, we can respond in and through Christ, who died for us and in whom we are resurrected a new creature clothed in His glory.

:e4e:
 

chrysostom

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I think you're mystifying something that isn't. Will is nothing more or less than a conscious decision exercised. So we don't desire to sin in principle, but we yield to it, to temptation, which can attack our intellectual vanity or our sensual inclinations as a creature of biology and we move, intentionally, into that error. Or, to borrow from my answer to the apostate about doubt, sin isn't something that happens to us, it's a choice.

I chose to give you a positive rep for that
and
you can hold me responsible
 

Totton Linnet

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I think you're mystifying something that isn't. Will is nothing more or less than a conscious decision exercised. So we don't desire to sin in principle, but we yield to it, to temptation, which can attack our intellectual vanity or our sensual inclinations as a creature of biology and we move, intentionally, into that error. Or, to borrow from my answer to the apostate about doubt, sin isn't something that happens to us, it's a choice.
My dear Townie, what a perfect hotch potch of double speech [if you don't mind me saying so :eek:]

"We don't desire to sin in principle but we yield to it" is saying that sin is stronger tan our will and that we are not free in our will but in bondage. "a choice" you say...rather it is a choice against our choice

Again, if our choices aren't freely made then we aren't responsible for them. If those choices aren't ours then the responsibility for them rests with God and God cannot defy His own nature, which is purely, perfectly good.
Choice is not freewill, if I say to you "you may walk along Piccadilly circus or you may walk along Oxford st" I am not giving you free will to walk where you may. The One who gives the options is the only One who has free sovereign will. And what are the choices? obey and live or rebel and die.

If we obey and live that is God's will, if we rebel and die we are dead.

I say if God had given us free will then God would be responsible for sin...just as if you give Jack free will and he smashes up the neighbourhood it is YOUR fault


That's a separate thing. But we are called by God into relation, so that none might perish but all might have life everlasting and the abundance of our intended design in this life. Unfortunately, being willful, not all accept the gift.



We are born in sin, slaves to our senses and our limitations, which root us in the empirical and move us toward the sating of whatever desires are found there and which move us, ego and appetite. We can choose to have or do, we can even choose to do what others looking on and we ourselves would call good. But we cannot be good and will not escape our natures, our willful missteps. And so grace.

Now you are talkin

If we lacked free will there'd be no need, being created to do what we do and be as we are. It is our rebellion in purpose that requires the cross, as God loves us and love is, we are taught, self sacrificing. Is there a clearer example of that perfect love than the cross?

Oh you've slipped back, man was led into rebellion by being deceived into believing he could sin freely, that is without consequence. This in essence is the same deception the devil uses today...that we can sin without consequence....that is what the crackhead says or the homo,

"God gave me freewill, I can do as I please" you taught them that


From the judgment of our willful acts, to be sure.

Wilful acts are one thing, but we have established that for us sin is against our will

I can demonstrate the error of that this way. A man may say to a woman, not his wife, offering herself in sin, "No". And that same man may think of someone later, cutting in front of him in traffic, a thought that is contrary to God's desire. And the self same mechanism by which he said "No" existed when he said, in essence and to the temptation of that thought, "Yes" and yet we have two distinctly different choices. One that does not require anything of grace and serves the good and the other that requires it and serves a wrong purpose.
Presuming the the thought was anger and therefore murderous you are saying we can choose not to commit adultery but we do commit murder...well my problem maybe that I can't keep my thieving maulers off somebody else's property...maybe someone else is one lying son of a toerag

All you are saying is one is bound by lust, another by sin of anger...lying, stealing. But whatever it is we are bound to sin

And so we find for we know nobody who does not sin. We are BOUND to sin, we are BOUND to die on account of sin.

's no such thing as freewill

It is entirely because we can choose to deny sin, to turn from temptation but do not that we are condemned justly and it is our willful leaning into our imperfection, against what we know to be the good, that requires grace.


He's right. But my son can love me, serve me and err. Sometimes willfully. There is that which we will, but sometimes do not and that which we would do but sometimes fail, to borrow and amend.

See here why I oppose the doctrine of freewill

YOU say when that young fella walked into the school with his automatic rifle, it was his freewill choice to do so. I say he is hopelessly BOUND by the most wicked and evil spirits. If you tell him he did it of his own freewill what hope is there?

Tell him the truth that he is in the grip of Satan and there is hope that he will cry for deliverance from the same. This is the same for ALL sinners.

But nobody will give up freewill...even though it is but an illusion


Hopefully the above explains my contextual sense of the relation between man and sin and grace.


To be sure, to be free of the fetters of that failure and its condemnation.


I think so also. First we are the objects upon which God can perfectly express His nature. And in that expression, through grace, we can respond in and through Christ, who died for us and in whom we are resurrected a new creature clothed in His glory.

When we are saved we receive His life, He LIVES in us....we can be transformed by the renewing of our minds to find ourselves in God's perfect will.

:e4e:

:)
 

Town Heretic

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Since you ran afoul of the quote function I'm going to break us apart in answering.


I wrote: I think you're mystifying something that isn't. Will is nothing more or less than a conscious decision exercised. So we don't desire to sin in principle, but we yield to it, to temptation, which can attack our intellectual vanity or our sensual inclinations as a creature of biology and we move, intentionally, into that error. Or, to borrow from my answer to the apostate about doubt, sin isn't something that happens to us, it's a choice.
My dear Townie, what a perfect hotch potch of double speech [if you don't mind me saying so
I never have a problem with a friend speaking their mind, but double speak as an intentionally obscure way of saying a thing and that is in no part a reasonable description of what I just did, agree or disagree with it.

"We don't desire to sin in principle but we yield to it" is saying that sin is stronger tan our will and that we are not free in our will but in bondage.
No, it's saying there's a difference between, "I'd like to be thin" and "But I'm really hungry and that cake looks pretty good". It's saying that we, in our imperfection, make knowing choices that the perfectly good cannot, but that it is self evident that we are capable of making a better choice, which is why we do not yield to every temptation.

Or, there are things we want in maturity and things we sometimes yield to in impulse, but the impulse neither owns nor excuses us. What we do with temptation is important, be it the sort that comes from within or without.

"a choice" you say...rather it is a choice against our choice
It is a particular failing of a general principle. We experience that daily. I want to be fit, says the fellow, but it's raining and cold, so I'll wait on the sun. Does he want to be fit? Yes. But he wants to be comfortable in the moment more. Both choices reflect his nature. The first defines his general intent and the second what he is willing to wager against it in the moment.

I wrote: if our choices aren't freely made then we aren't responsible for them. If those choices aren't ours then the responsibility for them rests with God and God cannot defy His own nature, which is purely, perfectly good.

Choice is not freewill, if I say to you "you may walk along Piccadilly circus or you may walk along Oxford st" I am not giving you free will to walk where you may.
That wouldn't be an analogous representation of it though. There is nothing in our nature that in any particular moment requires us to fail. Were there that we would at every opportunity fail. Yet we do this good and that evil. In those distinctions we find choice and evidence of will.

The One who gives the options is the only One who has free sovereign will. And what are the choices? obey and live or rebel and die.
In the acceptance of context, in the recognition of authority and in being reconciled to that, to be sure. No good thing you work is meaningful without that. But work you will and your will or His, which is a choice.

If we obey and live that is God's will, if we rebel and die we are dead.

I say if God had given us free will then God would be responsible for sin...just as if you give Jack free will and he smashes up the neighbourhood it is YOUR fault
If Jack can do nothing other than smash the neighborhood, yes. If I make him incapable of another choice then I have fashioned the evil he will do. But if he is free to understand the nature of his actions and to choose other than the fault and consequence are his.


I wrote: We are born in sin, slaves to our senses and our limitations, which root us in the empirical and move us toward the sating of whatever desires are found there and which move us, ego and appetite. We can choose to have or do, we can even choose to do what others looking on and we ourselves would call good. But we cannot be good and will not escape our natures, our willful missteps. And so grace.

Now you are talkin
Same guy, same context. :)

I wrote: If we lacked free will there'd be no need, being created to do what we do and be as we are. It is our rebellion in purpose that requires the cross, as God loves us and love is, we are taught, self sacrificing. Is there a clearer example of that perfect love than the cross?

Oh you've slipped back, man was led into rebellion by being deceived into believing he could sin freely, that is without consequence.
Led by what from what? I think that's the beginning of your tangled skein. If man has no will by what means was Adam brought down? And how was this accomplished? It is only in our free will that sin makes any sense, both in the happening and consequence.
 

Totton Linnet

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We are slaves TH
We have freewill TH

Doublespeak.....I am not saying it to slight you but the whole doctrine of freewill is doublespeak...like it's derivative doctrine conditional salvation.
 

Town Heretic

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We are slaves TH
We have freewill TH

Doublespeak.....I am not saying it to slight you but the whole doctrine of freewill is doublespeak...like it's derivative doctrine conditional salvation.
Well, no. I've never excused us for our choices, only noted the need for grace given them. And you've yet to answer on what follows if we lack will, what that speaks to and cannot.

I used to be able to use the quote function...I'll have to re learn it.
Happy to help if you need it. I run the old simple and by hand. Hit quote, leave the first part:
Totton Linnet;4243450 said:
(I add a space at the end before the bracket to keep the TOL machinery from reading it and making it a closed quote) then when I get to the place where I want to comment I type in the [/quote ] to close your quote and I type my response after it.

It's even easier there after, since all I have to do, point by point, is quote wrap whatever it is I'm wanting to respond to, sentence or paragraph. I do that by highlighting the section then clicking on the quote blurb at the top of the window I'm typing into. It looks like a dialogue bubble to the right of the icon that looks like a postage stamp.

The very end of the material you're answering will have a close quote already there (as you had the opening quote already there). If you want to answer that far down you'll end up entering your only [quote ] at the beginning of the sentence or paragraph or section, then go to the end of that where the close quote already exists and answer as normal.

In answering you, for me, that would have been the

"...like it's derivative doctrine conditional salvation.[/QUOTE ]
 

Totton Linnet

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I do not say we lack will, I say it is not free but in bondage....Christ has us free but we must stand fast in the freedom wherewith He has set us free....or our wills will lead us back into the bondage we were in before, even though we are saved.

All you said about quotes is a foreign language to me, I just don't understand :(
 

chrysostom

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I do not say we lack will, I say it is not free but in bondage....Christ has us free but we must stand fast in the freedom wherewith He has set us free....or our wills will lead us back into the bondage we were in before, even though we are saved.

All you said about quotes is a foreign language to me, I just don't understand :(

why do you use the word bondage?

we admit that our choices are limited
we admit that our abilities are limited

you seem to be suggesting that we are not able to help ourselves or others
 

Totton Linnet

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why do you use the word bondage?

we admit that our choices are limited
we admit that our abilities are limited

you seem to be suggesting that we are not able to help ourselves or others

Take the example of Saul/Paul

He was VERY religious, keen, and his zeal was for Jahweh God, the true God. It's all good what can go wrong?

Some people think Romans 7 was about Paul's Christian experience but it wasn't it was about his pre Christian experience.

He wanted to serve God, he thought he was serving God.

His will was to do good but instead of the good he intended to do he did evil.

He was acting on his will, what YOU call his free will but at that time his will was bound.

"Oh wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from this body of death?"....thanks be to God through Christ Jesus.

As Saul the last thing he wanted to do was preach the gospel, God set him FREE to do His own perfect will for Paul.
 

Totton Linnet

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Ahbut! my dear friend, no matter how great the purposes God may have for our lives yet still we must all come in the first instance the same way. The new birth is the first step with God for everyone. Christ must be our indwelling Lord.

In this matter we are utterly helpless except when we hear the gospel the Holy Ghost makes possible what is quite impossible to us.
 

Totton Linnet

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how does this happen?

This is a one on one with God, only He can do it. The wind blows where he listeth and ye hear the sound thereof. One step towards it is to greatly desire it, the inner life of Christ.

The reason it is so hard to explain is because for every single one who experiences the new birth comes to it differently. But the action on God's part is the same and the outcome is the same. Christ truly comes to dwell in the heart and we testify to it.

The wind blows where he listeth and ye hear the sound thereof.

Whatever doctrines seperates Christians yet this one we are united on...we have been born again.
 

chrysostom

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This is a one on one with God, only He can do it. The wind blows where he listeth and ye hear the sound thereof. One step towards it is to greatly desire it, the inner life of Christ.

The reason it is so hard to explain is because for every single one who experiences the new birth comes to it differently. But the action on God's part is the same and the outcome is the same. Christ truly comes to dwell in the heart and we testify to it.

The wind blows where he listeth and ye hear the sound thereof.

Whatever doctrines seperates Christians yet this one we are united on...we have been born again.

born again?

so why do you use a term like that?

no one knows what it means
 

Totton Linnet

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The Lord said it, unless a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.


....a first step would be to greatly desire to see the kingdom of God. Paul taught if any man be in Christ he is a new creation, old things have passed away behold all things have become new. A change must take place.

For Augustine it was a long journey struggling against the desires of the flesh, he was deep into sins of the flesh and did not see how he could change. He heard as it were the voice of a child say "open the book and read" so he opened his scriptures and read "put on the Lord Jesus and make no provision for the flesh" he saw at once what it was to be a Christian.
 
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