Praying football coach creates a mess

[serpentdove]

they should all be arrested and shot! :sibbie:

Ga 4:29

[YT="Off with his head.” ~ The Red Queen, Alice in Wonderland”]Eobuu-IexvI[/YT]

 

[Traditio]

apparently his only argument is "i agree with them because they redefine "establishment" in a way that i like"

That's basically what I'm hearing.

Frankly, the way that the social liberal rhetoric, ideaology, etc. is leading us, the way that the courts are going...it scares the tar out of me.

It reminds me of the French revolution and of the reign of terror. "Believe whatever you like in the confines of your own mind, but outside of that, you belong to us! Burn, monasteries, burn!"

 

[Jose Fly]

Except, it isn't, as should be readily obvious to anyone.

Yes it is. Why else do you think companies have codes of conduct and dress codes?

Have you been to a grocery store? Consider an occassion in which you purchased, say, a candy. The cashier makes a comment about the candy: "Oh, I've had those; they are really sour."

Are you going to take that as anything other than the personal opinion of the person in question?

Nope. But what if I bought a book on Christianity and the cashier says "Oh, I wouldn't read that. Christianity is nonsense." Do I have a reason to complain to the store manager?

My saying, "on the clock," that I like coffee...that assertion in no way, shape or form involves me acting in some official capacity on behalf of my employer. That's just silly.

But what if you say "Coffee is of the devil and everyone who drinks it is evil"? I have a feeling the employer might have something to say to you about that.

You are appealing to the court opinions. Do you have an argument in favor of the court opinions being correct or not?

Yep. Already posted.

Why? Again, there's any number of opinions that a teacher or coach might express to a student or anyone else that he has no reasonable expectation for the student or athlete to take in any kind of "official" capacity. "Oh man, I love beef jerky." In no way does this imply: "And as a school official I am COMMANDING YOU: EAT BEEF JERKY OR ELSE! :madmad:"

Except there's no law or court rulings prohibiting the government from promoting beef jerky. There is OTOH, law and court rulings prohibiting the government from promoting religion. Thus, you can say "I love beef jerky" and even if that is seen as coercive by some students, it's probably no big deal. But if you're a Hindu and say "Eating beef is evil and anyone who does so should be put to death", that's a big deal.

Tone of voice? Context? Body language? Subsequent actions and comments? Previous actions and comments?

So let's examine this case in that light. The coach goes out to the 50 yard line after games and prays. Why the middle of the field? Why immediately after games when most people are still there, including his players?

Obviously the context is a public display of his religion, and there is some expectation for players (students) to join in (otherwise, why not do it after the players have gone home).

That's blatantly illegal.

If I say, in passing, that the dependence of the senses on bodily organs excludes a Muslim doctrine, but ask no questions on quizzes, final exams, or papers about it...I fail to see how there's an coersion involved.

So you have no idea at all how a physics teacher telling his class that the laws of physics makes the resurrection of Jesus impossible is coercive or constitutes disfavoring Christianity? No idea at all?

Court decisions are the opinions of a certain number of people. Those people are not infallible.

But they are legally binding.

No, it isn't. Coercion involves some kind of threat.

Here, educate yourself. http://thelawdictionary.org/coercion/

Then what's your problem with what I've said to my students in my lectures?

You're in a private religious school, so the same rules don't apply.

And yet college professors, in State schools, are government employees who are on the clock.

But don't have a captive audience.

 

[ok doser]

But don't have a captive audience.

the coach had a captive audience?

musta missed that

 

[Angel4Truth]

the coach had a captive audience?

musta missed that

They would come out of the stands and join him, they were never asked to or forced to.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...ts-to-do-the-same-now-hes-being-investigated/

After the atheist letter threat, even parents and loads of spectators would come and join him. They dont like that.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Despite ban, HS coach prays on field after game
Fans, opponents join him

As Joe Kennedy knelt to pray at the 50-yard-line Friday night he felt a presence around him.

And it grew.

The assistant football coach at Bremerton High School in Washington state was being joined by some of his opponents and fans -- some of whom had come to the game to pray with him.

After the Knights' homecoming loss to the Centralia Tigers, Kennedy walked to the middle of the football field, hoping to say his usual thanks to God by himself.

He had been told not to do it. The Bremerton School District had said if he prayed while on duty as a coach he would be violating federal law.

Kennedy, as he has done after most games for seven years, prayed anyway, defying the order. He opened his eyes to find a huge crowd of supporters around him.

It was overpowering. The coach cried as he spoke to reporters.

"I've got my eyes closed and I feel all these people around me. I'm like, God, I hope those aren't kids," Kennedy told CNN affiliate KIRO of Seattle and other media outlets. "I'm sitting there and I'm going, 'God, thank you for this opportunity. And ... if this is the last time I step on the field with these guys ... ."

CNN called the school district on Saturday but didn't receive an immediate reply.

According to the Seattle Times, Kennedy, 46, has never asked anyone else to participate in the postgame prayer. And at first, it went largely unnoticed but players began to join him. One of them is a Bremerton captain. He's agnostic.

"It's about unity. We can be mad at each other all we want during a game and get upset, but once the game is over, that all goes away," Ethan Hacker told the Times. "What (Kennedy) does brings us all together no matter how much we despise each other."

The school district sees it as a potential violation of law, based on the separation of church and state.

"The district is in no way taking away an athletic coach's freedom of expression," Superintendent Aaron Leavell said in a statement posted to the organization's website. "What we are doing is what every state-funded agency and school district must do: abide by the laws that govern us."

Leavell didn't say what the possible punishment could be for Kennedy -- whose legal team notified the school district before the game he was going to pray -- might be.

The Liberty Institute, a religious freedom legal organization based in Texas, said in a letter this week to the school district that Kennedy is within his rights to pray once a game has ended.

"Accordingly, the First Amendment forbids religious activity that is sponsored by the government but protects religious activity that is initiated by individuals acting privately, as is the case with Coach Kennedy," deputy chief counsel Hiram Sasser wrote. He adds later, "No reasonable observer could conclude that a football coach who waits until the game is over and the players have left the field and then walks to midfield to say a short, private, personal prayer is speaking on behalf of the state."

The prayer, according to The Seattle Times, is a version of the following sentiment: "Lord, I thank you for these kids and the blessing you've given me with them. We believe in the game, we believe in competition and we can come into it as rivals and leave as brothers."

The district said in a September letter to the coach that he would still be permitted to speak to members of both teams after games, so long as the talk didn't include religious expressions, including prayer.

For several games, Kennedy abided by the directive. This week, he decided he had to do what he believed was right.

Now Kennedy waits to see what the school district will do.

"Whatever happens happens, you know," the Bremerton Patriot newspaper quoted him as saying. "But I'm going to be bold in my faith and I'm going to fight the good fight and I want to set that example for every one of the kids if you believe in something."

 

[serpentdove]

[Not leading prayer] Your understanding is incorrect.

Yours is. each:

 

[Angel4Truth]

Yours is. each:

Correct, he didnt lead anyone in prayer, they chose to go out there and join in on their own.

 

[6days]

Who cares if he's leading the prayer--not leading prayer. :hammer: He's free to continue praying in Jesus name (Jn 8:36). :straight:

If the law says he cannot, time to break the law (Dan 6:10). :dizzy:

Not so sure about that...
Aren't there simpler ways to share your faith than breaking the law? I'm all for a prayer huddle on the 50 yard line, but if it means breaking the law.....Well, it almost seems like at that point the prayer isn't between you and God but it's a show, similar to the pharisees prayer.
Perhaps it comes down to the individuals convictions?

 

[Angel4Truth]

Not so sure about that...
Aren't there simpler ways to share your faith than breaking the law? I'm all for a prayer huddle on the 50 yard line, but if it means breaking the law.....Well, it almost seems like at that point the prayer isn't between you and God but it's a show, similar to the pharisees prayer.
Perhaps it comes down to the individuals convictions?

If you walk out on the 50 yard line and pray after school is out and the game is over, and then other people walk out there and join you when you didnt ask them to, how is he breaking the law?

Do you believe that just because he works at a school, that he needs to hide his faith in the closet?

 

[6days]

If you walk out on the 50 yard line and pray after school is out and the game is over, and then other people walk out there and join you when you didnt ask them to, how is he breaking the law?

Do you believe that just because he works at a school, that he needs to hide his faith in the closet?

No... of course he shouldn't hide his faith. As a Christian coach he has an awesome opportunity to share his faith and be a positive influence in many lives.

I'm just suggesting that IF it was clearly against the law...or clearly against employer guidelines, that there might be simpler and more effective ways to share your faith.
For example...a parent, or a student could still organize a prayer time. ... and PERHAPS even do it on the 50 yard line after the game.

I just think they need to be careful that the prayer time is genuine...it can easily become a show in these situations.

 

[Angel4Truth]

No... of course he shouldn't hide his faith. As a Christian coach he has an awesome opportunity to share his faith and be a positive influence in many lives.

I'm just suggesting that IF it was clearly against the law...or clearly against employer guidelines, that there might be simpler and more effective ways to share your faith.
For example...a parent, or a student could still organize a prayer time. ... and PERHAPS even do it on the 50 yard line after the game.

I just think they need to be careful that the prayer time is genuine...it can easily become a show in these situations.

He should be able to pray where and when he desires and is led.

If anyone tells me that i cannot pray, or be breaking the law, ill be breaking the law.

 

[Quetzal]

I just think they need to be careful that the prayer time is genuine...it can easily become a show in these situations.

This is my concern, too. If it is a genuine expression of faith and others want to join him, go for it. I just hope this isn't a stunt, you know?

 

[Angel4Truth]

This is my concern, too. If it is a genuine expression of faith and others want to join him, go for it. I just hope this isn't a stunt, you know?

Considering he has done this for years, i wouldn't consider it a stunt - i would consider him doing it again as honoring God rather than man.

Basically he took a stand and stood on his faith.

 

[Quetzal]

Considering he has done this for years, i wouldn't consider it a stunt - i would consider him doing it again as honoring God rather than man.

Basically he took a stand and stood on his faith.

Important part right there. In which case, I support him. Again, it isn't like he is stealing the microphone and forcing others to participate. It is elective and non-intrusive. I see no problem with it.

 

[brewmama]

No... of course he shouldn't hide his faith. As a Christian coach he has an awesome opportunity to share his faith and be a positive influence in many lives.

I'm just suggesting that IF it was clearly against the law...or clearly against employer guidelines, that there might be simpler and more effective ways to share your faith.
For example...a parent, or a student could still organize a prayer time. ... and PERHAPS even do it on the 50 yard line after the game.

I just think they need to be careful that the prayer time is genuine...it can easily become a show in these situations.

It's NOT against the law, though, that's the point. The district is acting out of fear and ignorance, not the law.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I don't think those things are comparable. A Christian can change religions, leave, and come back; etc. A woman can't really stop being a woman. An Asian cannot change his race.

Of course they are comparable.

Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, prohibits employment discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.

Please notice that religion is included in the list.

It is illegal for the school to discriminate against the coach for his religion.
It is not illegal for the coach to freely exercise his religion, including showing signs of being a Christian at the school, like praying, which is a traditional Christian practice.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

Evidently, it is ok if others make laws prohibiting the free exercise of religion

Nobody is actually making that law, since it would be so easy to overturn in a court of law.

What is happening is that people like the FFRF are using lawsuits to create a public policy of discrimination against Christians by making it less expensive for public schools and other government agencies to discriminate against Christians than for the schools and agencies to treat Christians with the same respect they treat people of different national origins or different genders.

The public schools and other government agencies are bowing down to the pressure and telling Christians that it is not financially possible for them to refuse to discriminate against Christians.

 

[Town Heretic]

Good for the coach. If students feel free enough to walk away without worrying about it impacting their standing among teammates or with him I think that says everything that needs to be said about both the man and the lack of coercion, which is the only real concern there. There has to be some rational, reasonable latitude in approach to separation of church and state. We can open Congress with a prayer but we suspend coaches for praying at the end of a contest?

The idea was to protect ourselves from the entanglement and horrors that unfolded in Europe when dogmatically zealous and particular religion become too entangled with and empowered by the secular machinery of state. Does anyone really, reasonably expect that to be the outcome of a midfield prayer in a country where you're much more likely to see an outpouring of more violent dispositions in matters of politics than you are over religious particulars?

 

[genuineoriginal]

Not so sure about that...
Aren't there simpler ways to share your faith than breaking the law? I'm all for a prayer huddle on the 50 yard line, but if it means breaking the law.....

Once again, the coach did not break any law by praying.

The school broke the law by discriminating against him because of his religion.

Also, the Bible clearly provides an example of when believers must break the law and pray anyway.

Daniel 6:7,10 7 All the presidents of the kingdom, the governors, and the princes, the counsellors, and the captains, have consulted together to establish a royal statute, and to make a firm decree, that whosoever shall ask a petition of any God or man for thirty days, save of thee, O king, he shall be cast into the den of lions. . . . 10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.​