Porn. The Elephant in the room.

serpentdove

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[The wickedness of Sodom ([Ex 20:14]
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heterosexual [Lev. 20:10–12] or homosexual [Lev. 20:10,13]) was notorious (Gen. 13:13).] For those who didn't know, on January 30, 2013 Jim Nabors "married" his male partner of 38 years in Seattle. (LA Times)

:smack:

As a reminder Jamie is number 18 on Satan, Inc. (TOL Heretics list) in "The 'Jesus is not God' people (Non-trinitarians) category. :burnlib:
 

csuguy

Well-known member
I disagree with your usage/meaning of the word lust. Our Magisterium does too, which is primarily why I disagree with you. They teach that, "Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes." (Source found in my post to which you're responding.) In that definition they treat the matters of procreation and physical unity explicitly, and distinguish those things from lust.

Instead of quoting what the "Magisterium" hand down - you should be looking at their arguments and, if they be found good, present those arguments. There can be no real discussion otherwise. Or, if I provide you with a separate definition from another authoritative source - would you accept it? No - so it's better to stick with generally accepted definitions as the basis of one's discussions.

Lust is simply an innate physical desire that we are all born with, and it is a God given desire such that we are led to procreation. There is nothing "disorderly" about it in of itself, nothing sinful. It is rather good and has a clear purpose. That is why God commands wives not to deny their husbands, and visa-versa.

However, we know that just because a desire in one context is good does not mean that the desire cannot be misdirected or that we cannot act on a good desire in a sinful manner. As we know: Good intentions pave the road to hell. Rape, even with the intention of procreation, is sinful. Thus there are more important factors in the evaluation than simply procreation. On the other hand, homosexual relations are sinful as well - so we can't simply dismiss the importance of natural relations either.

Nevertheless, if a woman or man is barren/shooting blanks, that does not thereby invalidate one's marriage or the command that a wife and husband are not to deny each other. Rather, to divorce because of this would be a sin, and to cease having sex simply because one or the other, or even both, are incapable of reproduction would likewise be a sin. Thus marriage and sex are not simply a matter of procreation, though arguably the primary purpose thereof. Marriage and sex also legitimately serve a purpose even in the absence of the potential of procreation: a satisfactory marriage, an intimate bond, etc. Indeed, sex is a major driving force in the forming of social bonds - either directly or indirectly.

Now, back on to the matter of porn - let us explicitly limit ourselves to the matter of self-pleasure, as I believe that is more or less what you and others are focused on. You say self-pleasure is wrong for it serves no purpose. Yet doesn't it? Does it not allow one to satisfy their own desires without, say, paying for a prostitute instead? And it doesn't harm anybody - no illegitimate children or diseases. And if it hurts no one, and goes against none of God's commands, why should you say it is wrong, a sin?

Of course one left with self-pleasure as their only recourse would generally agree that sex with another is more desirable - but one cannot simply rush out and marry whomever. Given this fact, it is better that they resort to self-pleasure rather than illegitimate relations with another.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
While the Bible is silent on porn, our Magisterium is not:
Text 2354 Pornography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense. Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of pornographic materials.​

You know what other markets cater to base pleasures for profit? Most if not all of 'em. They identify people's desires (tasty food, good music, comfortable clothes, pretty homes, entertainment, etc.)and they supply a means of satisfying those desires for a profit. These are not bad markets because they exist to satisfy our desires nor because they do so for profit. You need to dig deeper than that - are they satisfying desires in a sinful manner (ex. prostitutes), are they using sinful means to supply their goods/services (ex. slave labor), etc.

Now, this where you actually can make some good arguments against the porn industry. Not against porn as a concept, but porn as it is actually produced and delivered. For indeed, the porn industry uses money to draw women in, especially young women who need money, and exploits them - pushing them into ever more depraved acts. Adultery is par for the course. And then you can get into human trafficking and such. I would definitely agree that the porn industry is sinful as hell.

On the other hand, what if we limited the discussion to drawn or cgi porn? Or photos of random naked men/women who were not engaging in sexual acts? While still not as desireable as an actual wife/husband, are you breaking any of God's commands with such things? Are you harming anyone? I think it extreme to say any kind of porn or sexual imagery is sinful and bad. Especially when you aren't supplying an alternative for how sexual desires are supposed to be satisfied for one who isn't married.
 

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
You know what other markets cater to base pleasures for profit? Most if not all of 'em. They identify people's desires (tasty food, good music, comfortable clothes, pretty homes, entertainment, etc.)and they supply a means of satisfying those desires for a profit. These are not bad markets because they exist to satisfy our desires nor because they do so for profit. You need to dig deeper than that - are they satisfying desires in a sinful manner (ex. prostitutes), are they using sinful means to supply their goods/services (ex. slave labor), etc.

Now, this where you actually can make some good arguments against the porn industry. Not against porn as a concept, but porn as it is actually produced and delivered. For indeed, the porn industry uses money to draw women in, especially young women who need money, and exploits them - pushing them into ever more depraved acts. Adultery is par for the course. And then you can get into human trafficking and such. I would definitely agree that the porn industry is sinful as hell.

On the other hand, what if we limited the discussion to drawn or cgi porn? Or photos of random naked men/women who were not engaging in sexual acts? While still not as desireable as an actual wife/husband, are you breaking any of God's commands with such things? Are you harming anyone? I think it extreme to say any kind of porn or sexual imagery is sinful and bad. Especially when you aren't supplying an alternative for how sexual desires are supposed to be satisfied for one who isn't married.

What does attempts at self gratification do? It keeps us from connecting with others in meanigful ways. For some it removes the personal work necessary to become the person suitable for a spouse. It leaves our souls hungry for the contentment only found in Christ. Self gratification is a lie.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
What does attempts at self gratification do? It keeps us from connecting with others in meanigful ways. For some it removes the personal work necessary to become the person suitable for a spouse. It leaves our souls hungry for the contentment only found in Christ. Self gratification is a lie.

It does not keep us from connecting with others in a meaningful way - that's ridiculous. People don't resort to it to escape from having a relationship, but rather because they lack one. Furthermore, even if they did use it to escape the need of an intimate relationship, so what? Remaining celibate is something the scriptures endorse.
 

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
It does not keep us from connecting with others in a meaningful way - that's ridiculous. People don't resort to it to escape from having a relationship, but rather because they lack one. Furthermore, even if they did use it to escape the need of an intimate relationship, so what? Remaining celibate is something the scriptures endorse.

1 Corinthians 7 leaves two options for those desire to honor the Lord.

Get married if you burn with passion, or devote yourself solely to the Lord, "to be holy in body and spirit". (1 Corinthians 7:34)

The things of the flesh and the world are at war with the soul.

"Beloved I urge you as sojourners and exiles to obatain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul." 1 Peter 2:11

No one is ever edified by coveting.
 

PureX

Well-known member
The pornography itself has no power over anyone, good or bad, that they don't give it. Those who become "damaged by it" were damaged to begin with. The porn only gave their damaged hearts and minds a focal point for expressing that damage.

Blaming porn is basically irrational and ineffective because it ignores the damage that already exists in people that pornography only makes evident. We need to address that damage, itself, and not blame it all on the means by which the damage becomes evident.
 

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
The pornography itself has no power over anyone, good or bad, that they don't give it. Those who become "damaged by it" were damaged to begin with. The porn only gave their damaged hearts and minds a focal point for expressing that damage.

Blaming porn is basically irrational and ineffective because it ignores the damage that already exists in people that pornography only makes evident. We need to address that damage, itself, and not blame it all on the means by which the damage becomes evident.
Just as one can't blame crack. But it is wise to the recognize the very real danger.
 

PureX

Well-known member
Just as one can't blame crack. But it is wise to the recognize the very real danger.
Drugs are physically dangerous, and physically addictive. Pornography is not. So they are not particularly analogous in some crucial ways.

I am against the legalization of prostitution because it is the deliberate exploitation and abuse of one human being by another, for profit. But not all pornography is similarly exploitive. Selling an image of a human being's body is not the same as selling a human being's physical body. And so does not carry the same exploitative ramifications.
 

patrick jane

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Drugs are physically dangerous, and physically addictive. Pornography is not. So they are not particularly analogous in some crucial ways.

I am against the legalization of prostitution because it is the deliberate exploitation and abuse of one human being by another, for profit. But not all pornography is similarly exploitive. Selling an image of a human being's body is not the same as selling a human being's physical body. And so does not carry the same exploitative ramifications.


Porn is addictive and mentally harmful, which carries over to physical
 

PureX

Well-known member
Porn is addictive and mentally harmful, which carries over to physical
There is nothing about pornography, in itself, that is addictive. When people look at pornography, their bodies do not crave looking at more of it because it creates no physical dependency. It is only psychologically addictive, and then only for people with pre-existing psychological conditions that cause them to be vulnerable to it. In this way it is different from alcohol and drugs, and is more akin to something like a gambling addiction.

For the addict, it is a serious problem. But I don't believe that warrants denying it to society as a whole. Just as we don't deny alcohol, gambling, and tobacco to society as a whole just because some people will become horribly addicted to it.
 

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
There is nothing about pornography, in itself, that is addictive. When people look at pornography, their bodies do not crave looking at more of it because it creates no physical dependency. It is only psychologically addictive, and then only for people with pre-existing psychological conditions that cause them to be vulnerable to it. In this way it is different from alcohol and drugs, and is more akin to something like a gambling addiction.

For the addict, it is a serious problem. But I don't believe that warrants denying it to society as a whole. Just as we don't deny alcohol, gambling, and tobacco to society as a whole just because some people will become horribly addicted to it.

You are ignoring the truth.
Read the article in the 1st, post.
It releases pleasure hormones in large quanities that become addicting, which are designed to be used during sex between two loving partners.

Its not natural to get aroused watching porn and it is harmful to the brain and the soul, which are connected.

Porn also devalues the participants. Something to be lusted after instead of cherished.
 

patrick jane

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Banned
There is nothing about pornography, in itself, that is addictive. When people look at pornography, their bodies do not crave looking at more of it because it creates no physical dependency. It is only psychologically addictive, and then only for people with pre-existing psychological conditions that cause them to be vulnerable to it. In this way it is different from alcohol and drugs, and is more akin to something like a gambling addiction.

For the addict, it is a serious problem. But I don't believe that warrants denying it to society as a whole. Just as we don't deny alcohol, gambling, and tobacco to society as a whole just because some people will become horribly addicted to it.

Good points, however it is more available than ever to young children whose brains and bodies are still developing, creating more potential pervs.
 
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