Poll: Do you agree with this picture?
- Thread starter musterion
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Not sure.
Miss em, though; canktankerous brother, that he was, lol
Perhaps he is now correcting the Apostle Paul :chuckle:
My observation of the dynamic that causes one to end up at, say, Acts 28, is that they were never reallly settled on some of the various issues that Paul's ministry only appears to pose.
That together with their never really having understood the impact of Paul's conversion in Acts 9 on all things from that point forward.
Things always come down to a solid, core foundational grounding.
Without it, both they and their followers end up at the same unsettledness and inability to solve for such things soundly.
Others end up either going along with the old, or never really examining the basis of their views.
As a result, they wax worse in their errors, and easily take offence when their views are challenged.
There is something to be said for being willing to turn one own's harsh standard on one's own conclusions; see what holes in one's thinking that might expose.
Go through Bryan Ross' Grace History Project - its one big history of all the above, all the way back to...
..."the hallowed halls of antiquity..."
musterion
Well-known member
Ivan was president of BBS for a time back thirty or so years ago...before or after Jordan? Can't recall...and until publicizing his views on Lazarus and the Rich Man (which predated news of his move to 28 and really is not related to it) he was a stalwart for the mid-Acts Grace movement. At that point he was essentially excommunicated. So in his case, I don't believe it was a lack of grounding. Having personally spoken with the man in person and by phone many times, and knowing his pre- and post-28 testimony, I more or less understand the doctrinal reasons for his switch and continue to wish the brother well.
I recall reading a Mid-Acts commentary on Romans wherein its' writer turns Romans 10's "heart...mouth" into a metaphor.
Something along the line of how that just as the reference to the heart is not a reference to the blood pump in one's chest, the reference to the mouth is not actually a reference to the mouth.
Why the song and dance?
On the one hand, in order that it fit his sound belief in faith without works, on the other, because he had been unable to get at the actual sense of the passage but had to solve for its seeming contradiction somehow.
Reading his explanation, the sense or vibe his word rhythms gave off as to that was that he was aware he was not really sure of his explanation.
One hears and or reads people like that writer who display those kinds of momentary inconsistencies.
The sense is that though perhaps aware they are not really concluded on a thing, they run with it anyway.
Such individuals are not really as grounded as one would think.
So its not surprising some of them later "turn."
Bullinger was like that. In his case, though a brilliant mind the sharper individuals among his many enemies continue to acknowledge to this very day, nevertheless, when reading his great book on Bible study principles, it is obvious he every so often departs from said principles in his need to have an answer to a thing that further time in the Word might have yielded - no matter how long that takes.
In this, that the brilliant, brilliant man among few to this very day, ended up being persuaded by Welch away from his earlier (in time) Mid-Acts Position to the Acts 28 Position, is not surprising.
This issue is one of a constant need to carefully examine every aspect of where one thinks one is looking at a thing from.
In this, Mid-Acts is not a primary.
Rather, this constant self-examination together with those generic principles that time in the Word gradually resulted in, and that, in turn, then resulted in seeing Mid-Acts, are.
Every fool on here attempts to put what they view as our cart before what they view as our horse.
The MADist can not afford to allow himself that same error.
Not if he is to eventually see what's been there all along.
One should never allow one's sense of perplexity as to a thing in Scripture to lead one to conclude the answer perhaps lies somewhere outside the Scripture and or within one more angle from which to attempt to reason about and or look at a passage from.
Something along the line of how that just as the reference to the heart is not a reference to the blood pump in one's chest, the reference to the mouth is not actually a reference to the mouth.
Why the song and dance?
On the one hand, in order that it fit his sound belief in faith without works, on the other, because he had been unable to get at the actual sense of the passage but had to solve for its seeming contradiction somehow.
Reading his explanation, the sense or vibe his word rhythms gave off as to that was that he was aware he was not really sure of his explanation.
One hears and or reads people like that writer who display those kinds of momentary inconsistencies.
The sense is that though perhaps aware they are not really concluded on a thing, they run with it anyway.
Such individuals are not really as grounded as one would think.
So its not surprising some of them later "turn."
Bullinger was like that. In his case, though a brilliant mind the sharper individuals among his many enemies continue to acknowledge to this very day, nevertheless, when reading his great book on Bible study principles, it is obvious he every so often departs from said principles in his need to have an answer to a thing that further time in the Word might have yielded - no matter how long that takes.
In this, that the brilliant, brilliant man among few to this very day, ended up being persuaded by Welch away from his earlier (in time) Mid-Acts Position to the Acts 28 Position, is not surprising.
This issue is one of a constant need to carefully examine every aspect of where one thinks one is looking at a thing from.
In this, Mid-Acts is not a primary.
Rather, this constant self-examination together with those generic principles that time in the Word gradually resulted in, and that, in turn, then resulted in seeing Mid-Acts, are.
Every fool on here attempts to put what they view as our cart before what they view as our horse.
The MADist can not afford to allow himself that same error.
Not if he is to eventually see what's been there all along.
One should never allow one's sense of perplexity as to a thing in Scripture to lead one to conclude the answer perhaps lies somewhere outside the Scripture and or within one more angle from which to attempt to reason about and or look at a passage from.
musterion
Well-known member
I don't mind that so much. It's a sign of humility when someone indicates that this or that position is to the best of his understanding at this point but subject to change. I've learned much and dis-learned even more during my time at TOL. It's the reason I stay.
But this will all be cleared up for us when the Day dawns.
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Jesus doesn't want your old Adamic sinful heart or life, that has been crucified
He wants you to have his pure sinless life for your justification, Romans 3:26.
He wants you to have his pure sinless life for your justification, Romans 3:26.
musterion
Well-known member
To give your heart to Jesus means that your spirit (which leads you into your works), will conform to the Spirit/will of Jesus.
The Spirit of Jesus is a perfect amalgam of the Spirit of Truth, Spirit of Intercession and the Spirit of Love.
The Spirit of Jesus is conformed precisely unique for each person because each person's Truth is different. Each person's Truth relates to the ideas, beliefs, interests, needs, desires and aspirations which that person loves in his or her own individual heart or spirit
The Spirit of Jesus is a perfect amalgam of 1. the ideas, beliefs, interests, needs, desires and aspirations which one (each person) loves in one's own individual heart or spirit and 2. the Spirit/will of God.
The Spirit of God (the Holy Spirit) is God's Love for the idea of His creation.
Jesus, operating in His Spirit capacity, as the Spirit of Truth/Spirit of Intercession/Spirit of Love, intercedes on behalf of each Christian/Saint/child of God, with the Holy Spirit. Jesus does this according to only the ideas, beliefs, interests, needs, desires and aspirations which that person loves in his or her own individual heart or spirit.
Then from this, the Spirit of Jesus comes up with what He has in mind for that Christian/Saint/child of God to know, pray for, say and do. A Christian/Saint/children of God recognizes the Spirit of Jesus as urging of love which arise and are sustained, naturally and spontaneously within his own heart or spirit, for specific people, things and circumstances in God's creation.
A Christian/Saint/children of God simply acts on these urging of love and he/she does the will of God while serving his/her own spirit, in perfect harmony.
Because one is serving the love in one's own heart/spirit it is totally blissfully easy and natural to be lead by the Spirit of Jesus. Also the results of being lead by the Spirit of Jesus is totally bliss giving because one fulfills the ideas, beliefs, interests, need, desires and aspirations of one's own heart or spirit in perfect harmony with the will of God. One get no sin, even if one transgress the ten commandments. In fact one is perpetually glorified by God. One can do no wrong.
The above is Christianity. All other ideas are corruption of Christianity. This is the absolutely divine Gift that is the Lord Jesus. A better gift has not yet come to this world. The Spirit of Jesus in the Spirit that was promised to Abraham and his seed, by God.
2 Corinthians: 3 King James Version (KJV)
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
1 Corinthians: 15 KJV N.T.
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
John: 16 KJV N.T.
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
This is the absolutely divine Gift that is Jesus. He is the promised Spirit. The Spirit of Jesus is the Spirit that was promised to Abraham and his seed by God. The Spirit of Jesus is that perfect amalgam of the Spirit of Truth, Spirit of Intercession and Spirit of Love
Romans: 8 KJV N.T.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
The Spirit of Jesus is a perfect amalgam of the Spirit of Truth, Spirit of Intercession and the Spirit of Love.
The Spirit of Jesus is conformed precisely unique for each person because each person's Truth is different. Each person's Truth relates to the ideas, beliefs, interests, needs, desires and aspirations which that person loves in his or her own individual heart or spirit
The Spirit of Jesus is a perfect amalgam of 1. the ideas, beliefs, interests, needs, desires and aspirations which one (each person) loves in one's own individual heart or spirit and 2. the Spirit/will of God.
The Spirit of God (the Holy Spirit) is God's Love for the idea of His creation.
Jesus, operating in His Spirit capacity, as the Spirit of Truth/Spirit of Intercession/Spirit of Love, intercedes on behalf of each Christian/Saint/child of God, with the Holy Spirit. Jesus does this according to only the ideas, beliefs, interests, needs, desires and aspirations which that person loves in his or her own individual heart or spirit.
Then from this, the Spirit of Jesus comes up with what He has in mind for that Christian/Saint/child of God to know, pray for, say and do. A Christian/Saint/children of God recognizes the Spirit of Jesus as urging of love which arise and are sustained, naturally and spontaneously within his own heart or spirit, for specific people, things and circumstances in God's creation.
A Christian/Saint/children of God simply acts on these urging of love and he/she does the will of God while serving his/her own spirit, in perfect harmony.
Because one is serving the love in one's own heart/spirit it is totally blissfully easy and natural to be lead by the Spirit of Jesus. Also the results of being lead by the Spirit of Jesus is totally bliss giving because one fulfills the ideas, beliefs, interests, need, desires and aspirations of one's own heart or spirit in perfect harmony with the will of God. One get no sin, even if one transgress the ten commandments. In fact one is perpetually glorified by God. One can do no wrong.
The above is Christianity. All other ideas are corruption of Christianity. This is the absolutely divine Gift that is the Lord Jesus. A better gift has not yet come to this world. The Spirit of Jesus in the Spirit that was promised to Abraham and his seed, by God.
2 Corinthians: 3 King James Version (KJV)
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
1 Corinthians: 15 KJV N.T.
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
John: 16 KJV N.T.
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
This is the absolutely divine Gift that is Jesus. He is the promised Spirit. The Spirit of Jesus is the Spirit that was promised to Abraham and his seed by God. The Spirit of Jesus is that perfect amalgam of the Spirit of Truth, Spirit of Intercession and Spirit of Love
Romans: 8 KJV N.T.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
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musterion
Well-known member
Saying it doesn't make it so.
No ill will here!
I have a question that might help clear this up (I hope)....
Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Okay, first of all I highlighted the portion of verse 9 that explicitly states that Paul IS talking about THE gospel which he (and his cohorts) preach. Note that this clear and complete unambiguous declaration by Paul comes all of ONE SENTENCE before what you guys are claiming to be something other than what Paul preached as the gospel. ONE SINGLE SENTENCE!!! :bang:
That should be enough by itself to end this whole debate but since I know it won't be, here's my question.
What does it mean to "confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ" and/or to "call upon Him"?
There is no answer to that question in the Dispensation of Grace without referencing the fact that we are all sinners and that we need Christ and His sacrifice on the cross to redeem us from the debt we owe!
I don't know one single Christian who teaches anything else other than that - even non-dispensationalists get that much right - even most Catholics get that much right - Even Calvinists give that much of the gospel solid lip service! The suggestion that the failure to make sort of contrived distinction between Romans and Corinthians as proof that one is preaching some different gospel is simple insanity.
Resting in Him,
Clete
glorydaz
Well-known member
I totally agree with you, Clete. Heck, I got saved when I was reading John 1:1 and some JW's were telling me Jesus was "a God". The Holy Spirit about knocked me off my feet....I remember it like it was yesterday. The reality of the Lord Jesus Christ was immediate.
Romans 10 has something very important in it...."believe unto righteousness". That is the Gospel story (Good news) in three words. God's word has power...not just a particular select verse. Why put such limits on which words have the "power" to save? I hate this kind of quibbling!
It's the same with this saying, "I gave my heart to Jesus". There is nothing wrong with saying that. It means I saw the light....I believed... I was blind but now I see. Whatever words I was reading or hearing when the Power of God reached me, they were Truth and LIFE for me.
musterion
Well-known member
Clete,
If an unbeliever is told to act on Romans 10:9-10 by "calling on Jesus" (it happens) but is told little if anything else, what exactly will they be believing about Him? And what will they be believing about themselves?
When it comes to the Gospel and the lost, if I err it will be on the side of being overcautious in order to be both very clear and precise, yet as simple as possible.
1 Cor 15 is not vague nor is it imprecise. The lost believe it and they will be saved. Moreover, they will know why they're saved: Christ took care of both their sin (by dying and being buried for it) and their justification (by being raised for it).
That's what I already asked.
EXACTLY. That's been my point all along.
That is exactly why I've been insisting we don't need to reference Romans 10:9-10 with the lost, but IF it is referenced it must be clearly stated in the context of the DBR for our sin and justification, per 1 Cor 15.
We may disagree on what Paul meant in 10:9-10 in the larger context of Romans 9-11. But based on what I just quoted from you, I don't see where we disagree with regard to sharing Christ with the lost.
If an unbeliever is told to act on Romans 10:9-10 by "calling on Jesus" (it happens) but is told little if anything else, what exactly will they be believing about Him? And what will they be believing about themselves?
When it comes to the Gospel and the lost, if I err it will be on the side of being overcautious in order to be both very clear and precise, yet as simple as possible.
1 Cor 15 is not vague nor is it imprecise. The lost believe it and they will be saved. Moreover, they will know why they're saved: Christ took care of both their sin (by dying and being buried for it) and their justification (by being raised for it).
That's what I already asked.
EXACTLY. That's been my point all along.
That is exactly why I've been insisting we don't need to reference Romans 10:9-10 with the lost, but IF it is referenced it must be clearly stated in the context of the DBR for our sin and justification, per 1 Cor 15.
We may disagree on what Paul meant in 10:9-10 in the larger context of Romans 9-11. But based on what I just quoted from you, I don't see where we disagree with regard to sharing Christ with the lost.
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glorydaz
Well-known member
You know, dear brother, I've never yet met someone who didn't ask questions that need to be answered using other verses. It's how God uses us. How can one preach the Gospel without the verses that explain about sin and how all men sin and come short? Then you have to explain why Christ's death makes us right with God. Personally, I find Romans 10 fits in perfectly and there are no stand alone verses. If there was then we wouldn't be needed at all.
I'm confident you know this as well as anyone, and I'm so thankful you're here to share. I don't see where we really disagree, either.
The only disagreement is with the notion that there is some sort of disconnect between Romans and Corinthians. There isn't one.
The idea that one MUST use Corinthians or even that Corinthians is superior is just as ridiculous as the notion that the two are somehow not in agreement with one another and that if I teach that Romans 10 is the gospel that I've somehow lied to my audience. Words mean things and when we communicate, regardless of the topic or the audience, it is the responsibility of the one sending the message to make certain that it is being communicated in a manner which his audience understands. In other words, if someone is discussing salvation with an unbeliever and fails to communicate the actual gospel to him, that isn't the fault of Romans 10 nor does it mean that Romans 10 is preaching anything other than the gospel or some other gospel different that what Paul taught elsewhere. Paul's audience in his epistles are believers, not unbelievers! Paul was not required to delineate every detail of the gospel every time he mentioned it.
Further, heir is going a step further even than that (perhaps you disagree with her on this point). She isn't suggesting that Romans 10 merely lacks the details of why and that Romans and Corinthians should go hand in hand as you've suggested but that Romans 10 it flatly not the gospel at all and that anyone who teaches otherwise is preaching some other gospel and is a false teacher. That's just simple nonsense.
Resting in Him,
Clete