Poll: Do you agree with this picture?

[Gurucam]

Matthews: 13 KJV N.T
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

How indeed can Jesus heal anyone who esteem, use promote and invoke parables in the KJV N.T. Parables were given for people whose hearts were waxed gross.

Parables were also given for those who are not given to know the mysteries of God's kingdom of heaven. Also parables were given to take away the little that they have.

 

[musterion]

Matthews: 13 KJV N.T
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

How indeed can Jesus heal anyone who esteem, use promote and invoke parables in the KJV N.T. Parables were given for people whose hearts were waxed gross.

Parables were also given for those who are not given to know the mysteries of God's kingdom of heaven. Also parables were given to take away the little that they have.

Christ did use parables to hide truth from those who'd already rejected His Word -- not to reveal truth as is commonly believed. So what is your point here?

 

[Clete]

Matthews: 13 KJV N.T
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

How indeed can Jesus heal anyone who esteem, use promote and invoke parables in the KJV N.T. Parables were given for people whose hearts were waxed gross.

Parables were also given for those who are not given to know the mysteries of God's kingdom of heaven. Also parables were given to take away the little that they have.

:kookoo: Lunatic Alert! :kookoo:

 

[musterion]

Other viewpoints, posted for the sake of discussion...

"There is no contextual reason for interpreting this [10:9-10] as a [literal] confession before men, for such a confession has nothing to do with our salvation in this age of Grace. "

Ernest Campbell

"This [Paul's reference to Joel 2:32] is true of all dispensations. It is NOT THE MESSAGE PREACHED but the RESPONSE to the message that is important here in Romans 9 and 10, in calling on the name of the Lord for salvation. I firmly believe that Romans 10:9-10 is what should take place at the time of salvation. . .There is one unchanging principle that Paul can glean from the Old Testament, which he did when he quoted from Isaiah 49:23 and Joel 2:32 -- that those who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved."

Robert Brock, caps in original

 

[Clete]

Why do wackos always insist on typing their posts in multiple colors?

It's just so annoying, I can hardly stand to read it at all!

Throwing in a bit of color here and there for emphasis is one thing but having a Technicolor post where any color of text will do (except black) is silly and sort of gay really.

 

[musterion]

Yet another...

"As far as the verses 10:9-10 are concerned, we need to recognize the context in which they occur. It is very clear that Paul is dealing with Israel as a nation, with special references to the elect, or the remnant. This has no reference whatever the church, the Body of Christ. Rom 9:27 makes it clear that the remnant consists of those of Israel who were saved. How were they saved? Obviously by believing the message that was particularly for Israel, the Kingdom message. According to Romans 11:5, 'Even so then AT THIS PRESENT TIME also there IS a remnant according to the election of grace." The remnant was in existence when Paul wrote Romans and Paul knew all about it. . .

It has apparently been ignored by the majority of preachers and writers, all of whom have had a lot of difficulty and resulting confusion with [10:9-10]...that when Paul wrote Romans, salvation was being offered to two different classes of people by means of two different gospels, the gospel of the circumcision (Acts 21:20) and the gospel of the uncircumcision, with two different contents of faith being required. The elect remnant were not being saved responding to Paul's message; they were being saved by responding to Peter's message, the good news of the Kingdom. . .

What right have we (especially those of us who insist on 'rightly dividing the word of truth') to extract the verses under discussion -- 10:9-10 -- from their very obvious context of Jewish salvation -- that of the elect remnant -- and insist they are dealing with salvation in the present dispensation, especially when they are so clearly a condition of salvation according to the Kingdom (Jewish) message, the content of faith required for salvation in the 'repent' of Peter in Acts 2:38? When it is recognized (and admitted) that 10:9-10 is Peter's message of salvation to the Jews and not Paul's message for today, there is no further need to try to explain away the obvious."

Harry Rosbottom, caps in original

 

[musterion]

Another...

"Is Romans 10:9-10 a salvation verse? If so, then in what dispensation does it belong, and of what Gospel is it part? . . .

"In verse 9 repentance is required. To repent means 'to confess and believe.' 'Confess' in Kingdom writings is a "works" verb. This confessing is an outward-overt manifestation of inward belief. But before the subject confessed with his mouth, he had to first initiate the action verb "believe." Thus the result being of the same faith, an inward-covert manifestation of faith. The Jews had to repent. The Gentiles have to believe. Therefore, there is a direct correlation between the book of Romans (Rom 4:5b) and the three parenthetical chapters (Rom 10:10a). . .Old Testament saints were not saved by faith plus works, but more accurately were saved by repenting (works plus faith). The works of the Law were required as a remission ceremony but did not remit sin. Believing did."

Vito S. Viglione, Chicago grace pastor

 

[Gurucam]

no

The following reply, which was made to an unrelated post, happens to also answer you appropriately:

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Fact is, traditional Christians commit a very serious transgression by saying that 'Love/God is simply an emotion'. They mindlessly parrot this corrupt statement simply because some unawares, spying false brethren and/or false prophet put that into their heads:

1 John: 4 KJV N.T.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

False Christians simply deny and distort the above very clear and literal KJV N.T. revelation because it does not support their false Christian ideas and teachings.

When people do not know that God is Love, how can they know know God.

The sad fact is: when traditional Christians boldly deny and corrupt the clear KJV N.T. revelation which literally confirm that God is Love they deny themselves and others awareness and knowledge of God.

This is to deny a most fundamental tenant in Christianity. Why would one do this and claim to be Christian, unless they have a death wish to be among the masses who are not chosen and sent to a sad place:

Matthew: 22 King James Version (KJV)
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Seems that every Tom, Dick and Harry (of the billion strong traditional Christians) is promoting corrupt anti-KJV N.T. ideas, in the name of Christianity.

Fact is, God is a Spirit and that Spirit are urging of Love. Love is no irrational or other emotion.

John: 4 King James Version (KJV)
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The above instructs that one worships love. One worship love by accepting that Love is supreme and above the ten commandments. And love will require you transgress the ten commandments, as Abraham, Rahab and all others who wish to serve spirit/love must do and did do.

To 'soweth to spirit' means serving love all the time unconditionally, even if one has to transgress the thou shall not covert and thou shall not commit adultery and/or any other ten commandments

'Soweth to flesh' means to esteem, use, promote and invoke the ten commandments. 'Soweth to flesh' also means using any kind of excuse to deny love so as to esteem, use, promote and invoke the ten commandments:

Galatians: 6 King James Version (KJV)
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Clearly one must know very accurately how one soweth to Spirit. To 'soweth to Spirit' has absolutely nothing to do with esteeming, using, promoting and/or invoking the ten commandments. The ten commandments are the law of sin and death. To soweth to Spirit is totally about life, eternal.

Romans: 7 KJV N.T.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Only those are in the flesh are held under the ten commandments and they can serve only flesh:

Galatians: 3 KJV N.T.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

A faithless person is a spiritually dead person. He is also called 'the dead' (in Jesus instruction, 'let the dead bury their dead'. He is also described as one whose 'spirit must be saved'. He is also described as one having a heart/spirit that is 'waxed gross'. Only such people are under the ten commandments and canons etc.

Also the ten commandments killeth:

Romans: 7 KJV N.T.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Hope that you clearly get the fact that 'soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption' means to esteem, use, promote and invoke the ten commandments which are the laws of sin. death and burial in hell inside the earth with Satan.

Yes. The above is absolutely correct, and pure Christianity.

Do not teach corruption of scriptures simply because you cannot discern the wisdom in their literal revelations.

1 Corinthians: 2 KJV N.T.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Too many natural men are teaching false Christianity, in the name of Christianity.

'Natural men' are 'the dead'. They get and use parables because they are not given by God to know the mysteries of God's kingdom of heaven. They do not get to follow Jesus, like the disciples:

Matthews: 13 KJV N.T.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Note that: parables were given to and for, people who are not given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.

Note, also, that: parables were given so that: whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

Note also that: the KJV N.T. are mostly parables.

Note also:

2 Corinthians: 3 KJV N.T.
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter (not of the parable riddled scriptures), but of the spirit: for the letter (for the parables riddled scriptures) killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

The scriptures have no Truth. Also Truth cannot be delivered from one person to another. Also Truth cannot be delivered in physically spoken and/or physically written words. Only the Spirit of Truth can deliver All Truth directly to the individual heart or spirit of each spiritually aware person:

John: 16 King James Version (KJV)
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

 

[musterion]

Still another view...

"Recognition of Him as Lord is also a necessity in salvation, for it says in Romans [10:9-10]..."

"Today the gospel of salvation is consistent with the dispensation of grace. Today there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek [here he quotes 10:9-10]...Both the heart and the mouth are a reference not to the literal mouth or the heart muscle but to the inner man (the spirit and mind) trusting Christ as Savior."

Donald Webb, Basic Bible Doctrines

 

[musterion]

The above instructs that one worships love. One worship love by accepting that Love is supreme and above the ten commandments. And love will require you transgress the ten commandments, as Abraham, Rahab and all others who wish to serve spirit must do.

Show where God or Christ commanded anyone to worship love.

Show where God or Christ said that love will require anyone to break the ten commandments.

 

[musterion]

"In Paul' s concluding remark (Gal 6:16) there is a reference to "the Israel of God." This is the only occurrence of this expression in the New Testament and it is almost impossible to dogmatically assert just who is intended. Some think Paul means the circumcision believers as a separate group from the Body of Christ; others think he means the Jewish believers who lived in the land and were not under his ministry; still others suppose Paul is simply uttering a prayer for Israel as such, for we know his heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel was that they might be saved (Rom 10:10)."

C.F. Baker, Dispensational Synopsis of the N.T.

"On the basis of Romans 10:9, 10 it is contended by some that there must be a public confession of Christ plus believing on Him before salvation becomes a reality. "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus (Jesus as Lord) and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." The words of Christ are also quoted in support of this teaching: "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 10:32, 33).

It should be evident first of all that if confessing with the mouth is made an absolute prerequisite to receiving salvation, it would be impossible for a dumb person to be saved. Out of the dozens of passages which state the terms of salvation elsewhere in Scripture, none state that confessing as a separate act is a requirement. Furthermore, such a requirement would make it impossible for a person isolated from society to be saved through reading the Word of God and believing the gospel.

It might as well be argued from the context which follows in Romans 10 that a person must literally call with his voice on the name of the Lord to be saved (vs. 13), or that in order to be saved one must listen audibly to a preacher (vs. 14). One can call on the Lord without uttering any audible sound, and one can hear the gospel by simply reading the Word. This does not at all mean that one should not confess Christ with his mouth or hear with his ears if he has them, or preach the Word audibly: it means simply that none of these things are essential prerequisites . . .

It would thus appear that true faith and confession are, like true faith and repentance, but the two sides of the same coin. And the reason, perhaps, why the two are sometimes mentioned together is that there is a possibility of a change of mind or of a verbal confession without there being true faith. Surely there is no thought in confession here of any set formula or group before whom confession is to be made. Neither are we to suppose that a person who truly believes the gospel is unsaved until he makes a public confession, for this would make faith and confession two separate, isolated acts."

C.F. Baker, Dispensational Theology

 

[Gurucam]

Matthews: 13 KJV N.T.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Note that: parables were given to and for, people who are not given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.

Note, also, that: parables were given so that: whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

Note also that: the KJV N.T. are mostly parables.

Note also:

2 Corinthians: 3 KJV N.T.
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter (not of the parable riddled scriptures), but of the spirit: for the letter (for the parables riddled scriptures) killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

The scriptures have no Truth. Also Truth cannot be delivered from one person to another. Also Truth cannot be delivered in physically spoken and/or physically written words. Only the Spirit of Truth can deliver All Truth directly to the individual heart or spirit of each spiritually aware person:

John: 16 King James Version (KJV)
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Why search or use any letters (i.e. any written material) to support your ideas?

 

[musterion]

"It has been noted that Paul does not always mention all three elements of the Gospel: His death, burial and resurrection. This is true. Romans 5:8 says, "...Christ died for us" (only His death is mentioned). Romans 10:9 says, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved" (only His resurrection is mentioned). I Thessalonians 4:14 states, "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again..." (His death and resurrection are mentioned). But in I Corinthians 15 where Paul specifically refers to "the Gospel" which he "received" (from Christ), he mentions all three: Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Therefore, in this writer's opinion, including all three elements in a Gospel presentation "to me indeed is not grievous and to you it is safe."

Joel Finck, Lordship Salvation and the Gospel of the Grace of God

 

[musterion]

In these sublime words [Romans 10:9-13] the Apostle Paul sets forth God's simple plan of salvation in this "dispensation of the grace of God." This, he says, is "the word of faith, which we preach." How grateful we should be that both Jews and Gentiles are included in this program while God's blessings to Israel as a nation are being held in abeyance! . . .

The alarming extent to which the Church has departed from Paul's "gospel of the grace of God," however, is evidenced by the fact that today even many Fundamentalists, who claim to preach "the word of faith," have introduced into the very words of Paul in Vers. 9-11 the element of meritorious works.

How often babes in Christ are urged to get to their feet in public testimony on the basis of these words! They are reminded that, in addition to believing, "if thou shalt confess with thy mouth ... thou shalt be saved" (Rom. 10:9).

Frequently Christian workers, not rightly dividing the Word of truth, support this argument by an appeal to the words of our Lord in Matt. 10:32,33:

“Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven.

"But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father which is in heaven."

And thus the element of meritorious works is injected into "the word of faith, which we preach." Newborn babes in Christ are given to feel that a heart faith is not enough to make them secure; that not until they have risen in public testimony is their salvation fully confirmed . . .

Read as it is Romans 10:9-13 does not in any way qualify "the gospel of the grace of God." Read as it is it presents God's simple, wonderful plan of salvation for poor, lost sinners in "this present evil age."

C.R. Stam, Romans (bold and italics in original)

"The point in Paul's claim is that we now know Christ in a different way. Whereas Peter and the eleven knew Him as the King to reign on earth, we know Him (the same Person) as the glorified Head of the body (Eph. 1:19-23).

Paul, by the Spirit, indicates that a dispensational change has taken place, when he says:

"Wherefore HENCEFORTH know we no man after the flesh: yea, THOUGH WE HAVE KNOWN CHRIST AFTER THE FLESH, Yet NOW HENCEFORTH KNOW WE HIM NO MORE" (II Cor. 5:16).

Before that time men were expected to trust in Jesus as "the Christ, the Son of the living God," the King to reign as God on David's throne. But with the raising up of Paul Israel's rejection of Christ was assumed and we trust the rejected King as our glorified Lord and Savior. Hence Paul declares:

"If thou shalt confess with thy mouth JESUS AS LORD, and shalt believe in thy heart that God RAISED Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved" (Rom. 10:9, R.V.)."

C.R. Stam, Things That Differ (bold in original)

 

[musterion]

"In Romans 10:9 and 10 we read the condition of salvation; acknowledging the eternal Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ and believing in His bodily resurrection. Confessing that Jesus Christ was a very good man, even the best of men, and claiming to believe that He experienced some kind of a spiritual resurrection, but that He is not now in a glorified body which was raised from the dead, is wholly inadequate and brings no salvation."

J.C. O'Hair

 

[Gurucam]

Galatians:: 6 KJV N.T.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

The rule is: "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature." As many who walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

'The Israel of God', for the last 2000 odd years, 'the Israel of God' is the Israel that is heaven, in the spirit realm. This is were God is present. The Israel of God' is those few people of Israel who totally dropped the ten commandments and the total Old Mosaic system and embrace the new system/covenant. The New covenant is the following:

Romans: 8 King James Version (KJV)
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

'peace be on them, and mercy' refers to the forgiveness of the sins of Jews, up to the time of Jesus death on the cross.

The physical Jesus was a one time blood sacrifice for the sins, up to that time, of all Jews. Then they were supposed to totally walk away from the law of sin and death and embrace the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

Some did others did not. Those who did not embrace the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which makes one free from the law of sin and death, benefited nothing from the entire blood sacrifice thing. Also they benefited nothing from the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which makes one free from the law of sin and death.

After Jesus was offered as a blood sacrifice for the sins of the Jews, the Jews were split into two generation.

One remained under the Old system (Ishmael's generations). No aspect of Jesus benefited them anything. Mainly they do did not and do not qualify to benefit from the 'Israel of God'. They will reap only the Israel of the under world. This is the Israel of Satan.

The other set of Jews ceased being Jews and became Christian (Isaac's generations). They reap the Israel of spirit heaven. This is the Israel of God. To become a Christian is to actively and routinely exercise one's the liberty that one has in Christ. This is the God given freedom, liberty and justification to transgress the ten commandments so as to serve in the spirit, unconditionally.

The billion strong traditional Christians esteem, use, promote and invoke the ten commandments in some way or the other. They remained under the Old flawed covenant. They were not and are not under the new covenant.

Galatians:: 6 verses: 15 & 16 KJV N.T., above, is confirming that those Jews who abandon the ten commandments and serve in the newness of spirit have benefited from Jesus. They earn forgiveness of their sin under the old blood sacrifice of the physical Jesus. This blood sacrifice conformed to the Old Jewish system.

Then those Jews, who became Christians,gained God's kingdom of heaven in the spirit realm. This is the Israel of God.

Those who remained Jews did not become Christians. They remained under the Israel of sin, death and Satan.

Absolutely nothing changed for those Jews who continue to esteem, use, promote and invoke the ten commandments.

 

[musterion]

How God Saves Men
Believing Christ DIED, that’s HISTORY.
Believing Christ DIED for YOU SINS and Rose again, that’s SALVATION.
Read Romans 1:16, Romans 10:9-10 and 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
​

Cecil Spivey's post sig, Paul's Grace Message blog

 

[musterion]

In case you're wondering what is the point of posting all these quotes.

These quotes demonstrate the fact that going back many decades, there has been and still is a wide range of viewpoints, often contradictory ones, among MADs as to how (or if) Romans 10:9-10 is to be applied today. The point of that is: consensus will never be reached by all MADs here on TOL either.

Now I don't know about you but you know what? I'm just fine with that.

So if anyone desires to be confrontational about the issue, well, knock yourself out. It's none of my business.

 

[Danoh]

In case you're wondering what is the point of posting all these quotes.

These quotes demonstrate the fact that going back many decades, there has been and still is a wide range of viewpoints, often contradictory ones, among MADs as to how (or if) Romans 10:9-10 is to be applied today. The point of that is: consensus will never be reached by all MADs here on TOL either.

Now I don't know about you but you know what? I'm just fine with that.

So if anyone desires to be confrontational about the issue, well, knock yourself out. It's none of my business.

Musti, I was merely bustin your chops; riding you; giving you a hard time on that preface thing.

"...for by faith ye stand" (meant as in the passage itself).

Ask Interplanner, Tel, GT, et al if I hold back when I mean a thing otherwise.

Thanks for your labor in looking all those up, typing them for post on here, etc., Musti; much appreciated.

Personally, I found them both fascinating, as well as revealing.

One's assertions tend to reveal how and or where they study out a thing from.

Traced back to that; one is able to better understand not only where a writer is coming from, but what practices in study to either learn from and seek to avoid, as well as what practices in study to both learn from and incorporate into one's own.

As I have often noted; one of the reasons I signed up on TOL had been in hopes of sharing and exploring with other MADs our different understandings.

Well aware of what I have also often noted - that within any school of thought there are bound to be different understandings on some things, on the part of participants within a same school.

And well aware from my own, first hand, personal experiences with the following type of individual way before there was even a TOL:

That there are bound to be some within the resulting different groups within a same school of thought who take it upon themselves to insist that they alone are "sound" on one matter or another; that all others fall under some sort of an anathema, can not be helped.

By their supposed measure, were they to read the words of the writers you posted, they would have to right off conclude most, if not all of those writers as under said anathema.

Writers such legalists thru and through owe a huge debt of gratitude to, for what such legalists now assert is their holy grail alone.

This, even as such legalists stir up the very division they assert those who so much as speak a view not eye to eye with theirs, are guilty of.

Truth is; the legalist is the last to know the actual truth of a matter that actually counts upon encountering what we think might be off...

Philippians 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

In summary, the problems of strife and need for divisiveness on the part of such are actually no more than the manifestation of personal issues such have failed to apply the power of the Cross to.

Again, thanks for your labor.

D

 

[musterion]

In summary, the problems of strife and need for divisiveness on the part of such are actually no more than the manifestation of personal issues such have failed to apply the power of the Cross to.

That's true...much of it comes down to what it always comes down to, FLESH.

But in searching these things last night from several sources (one of which are my volumes of Robert Brock's old Journal of Pauline Dispensationalism, where for crying out loud this particular debate over 10:9-10 went on for months!), I came across an observation of Brock's that was really just a side comment but hit me square between the eyes. It'd take me an hour to find it again, but he said something like all this controversy (and any controversy, really) among brethren was actually a good thing in the sense that it demonstrated the true liberty we have to disagree under grace. We have the liberty to agree to disagree, or to simply disagree and leave it at that.

Of course there are certain things about which we are expected all to speak the same thing...but others, the Lord will just have to straighten out in that Day because it ain't happening sooner than that. And I'm fine with it. Which I mention only because once upon a time, not too awful long ago...no. I wasn't fine with it. I take that as a sign of Growth, thank God.

Anyway, I wish I could remember his exact words but you get the gist. It hit me in a way I'd never considered before. I dunno, maybe because it was so late and I was tired.