Poll: Do you agree with this picture?

Poll: Do you agree with this picture?


  • Total voters
    12
  • Poll closed .

Danoh

New member
No; some of these so called Grace people are simply petty.

Including some of the more well known ones within "the Grace Movement."

Frankly; I'd rather find out that such is the case sooner, than later.

Nothing worse than building time in supposed fellowship with someone (or any in relationship, for that matter) only to find way later that theirs was anything but what it had appeared to be.

In this, I'd rather know right off that I am dealing with a jerk; or even that I myself am considered one by someone.

As they say "ya can't win em all."

:)
 

Danoh

New member
Neither an open forum, nor someone one does not know well personally, are time and place for freely discussing actual names.

An example from some of the Apostle Paul's own personal experiences with such types made public by Paul; will have to suffice.

2 Timothy 4:9 Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me: 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. 4:11 Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry.

4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:

4:16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.

What really matters in all this is the principle the Lord, well aware of the heart of men: had advised the 12 would be wise to follow...

Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
 

Danoh

New member
Personally, as with any issue, where one ends up as to their understanding of, say, Romans 10:9-10, will greatly depend upon both their take on Romans as a whole, as well as on how much of their take on Romans as a whole they are keeping in mind, as they consider the possible sense of those two passages.

And as the reemergence of MAD shows; the proper understanding of Romans as a whole is a life long process that each individual must continue to subject to the repeated review of as to one's understanding of same, til the day one leaves this earth.

Where that is missing, you will find individuals who conclude/assert not only that their view is the last word, but that anyone who does not see eye to eye with them is "an enemy of" this; that; the other...

This very thing divided the so called "Grace Movement" decades ago.

Just as this sort of need to be right and to lord it over others, will continue to result in more splits...

The reality, I suspect?

"Though we have sought to make this book as comprehensive as possible, it is not presumed to be exhaustive for, as we say, the field of dispensational study is as great as the Bible itself. Should there still be some time remaining before the Lord returns to catch His own away, the Spirit will enlighten the hearts and minds of others to see what we have missed and other writers will doubtless improve upon what has here been written." - p. 10, Things That Differ, by C. R. Stam.
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
Saying it doesn't make it so.
Underlined my emphasis

We ask God to help us share the good news of forgiveness and eternal life available through trusting in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. For as the Lord Himself has said, "this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God [the Father], and Jesus Christ [God the Son] whom You have sent" (John 17:3). And as Paul, "the apostle to the Gentiles," wrote, "if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" (Rom. 10:9; 11:13).

Consider Also the Gospel Message Online: If you'd like to know more, the following links go to web pages created by those who love the Lord Jesus and who hope to share the Gospel message with you. These men and women have been convinced by the evidence that He has been raised from the dead to save those who turn from their life of ignoring or even rejecting Him, to trust in the good news of salvation and eternal life through Jesus Christ. Please consider these online resources:

for kids, for teenagers, for sports fans, for readers who want to see the evidence, for evolutionists, for atheist readers, for normal readers, for photography lovers, for good people, for Catholics, for Protestants, for those who are ready to believe, or for movie lovers who speak any of 1,000 languages, or from John's account, or from his third chapter, or in a single verse from the Apostle Paul.


All of the above taken from http://kgov.com/the-gospel
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Underlined my emphasis

We ask God to help us share the good news of forgiveness and eternal life available through trusting in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. For as the Lord Himself has said, "this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God [the Father], and Jesus Christ [God the Son] whom You have sent" (John 17:3). And as Paul, "the apostle to the Gentiles," wrote, "if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" (Rom. 10:9; 11:13).

Consider Also the Gospel Message Online: If you'd like to know more, the following links go to web pages created by those who love the Lord Jesus and who hope to share the Gospel message with you. These men and women have been convinced by the evidence that He has been raised from the dead to save those who turn from their life of ignoring or even rejecting Him, to trust in the good news of salvation and eternal life through Jesus Christ. Please consider these online resources:

for kids, for teenagers, for sports fans, for readers who want to see the evidence, for evolutionists, for atheist readers, for normal readers, for photography lovers, for good people, for Catholics, for Protestants, for those who are ready to believe, or for movie lovers who speak any of 1,000 languages, or from John's account, or from his third chapter, or in a single verse from the Apostle Paul.


All of the above taken from http://kgov.com/the-gospel

Amen!

There's not one syllable of disagreement there with anything Paul taught ANYWHERE in his epistles.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
In case you're wondering what is the point of posting all these quotes.

These quotes demonstrate the fact that going back many decades, there has been and still is a wide range of viewpoints, often contradictory ones, among MADs as to how (or if) Romans 10:9-10 is to be applied today. The point of that is: consensus will never be reached by all MADs here on TOL either.

Now I don't know about you but you know what? I'm just fine with that.

So if anyone desires to be confrontational about the issue, well, knock yourself out. It's none of my business.

It's totally straining at gnats to choke down camels if you ask me. There just isn't any conflict between anything presented in Romans vs any other Pauline epistle. Any perceived conflict is contrived.
 

musterion

Well-known member
My hat's off to you if you can read all the way through this rambling rant, whether or not you end up agreeing with it.

I've come to believe we too often let ourselves become victims of our own wealth.

Like many of you I've seen churches split and believers shun fellowship with others over doctrinal disputes that, at least quite a few of which, are somehow considered unquestionables of the Faith when it's doubtful they really are.

What, for example, did the Corinthians have as far as doctrinal references goes? The Jews who converted and the righteous Gentiles had the O.T., then the revelations from Christ to Paul. The out and out pagans who were saved pretty much had Paul's letters, and probably gained some exposure to the O.T. but in some cases, maybe not. They also had the gift of prophecy, etc, but as fundamental doctrine they had what Paul revealed to them, which was predominant. This goes for the rest of the Gentile churches Paul ministered to. Some of the letters (Ephesians, iirc) were intended to be passed around church to church. But even then, many may never have known EVERYTHING Paul wrote -- only what he and his associates preached and wrote TO THEM.

So what direct exposure would most ex-pagan Gentiles during the Acts era have had to the content we have in the four gospel accounts, or to what we have recorded in Acts or the general epistles? Probably little to none. Word of mouth relayed by the apostles and their associates, or those who'd seen and heard, but the wealth of data we have in the N.T., most of them would have lacked. It is possible there are elements of Pauline theology that some of those to whom Paul ministered never learned, or never learned clearly, because they simply never heard or read of them directly.

And guess what. They were saved anyway.

Because what did they all have? The good news of the grace of God seen in the empty cross, the empty tomb and the glorious throne.

Did Paul foresee a day when even unbelievers the world over could potentially own at least one copy of the ENTIRE WRITTEN REVELATION OF GOD? I wonder.

I am not questioning, diminishing or regretting the Bible in any way when I say that, nor what follows.

But it is a fact: the joy of the simplicity of Christ and Him crucified for us is often lost to most of us, myself included. No one does it to us, we do it to ourselves. We let ourselves get caught up in THOUSANDS of Scriptural details, and debates internal and external about those details, which fog much of our thinking. It CAN stumble our walk and that of others. It CAN mar our testimony of Christ. Fellowship based on our certified union in the Gospel is obscured or derailed in disagreements, or even in the name of "agreeing to disagree."

Sometimes we even engage in forms of self-righteous doctrinal vengeance upon any disbelievers (disagreeers!) when ALL vengeance is forbidden us as belonging to God alone...and do so over things that really may not matter much in the end. If you've been on TOL longer than ten minutes, you all know this as well as I do.

Again...overall it is unquestionably a blessing that God has allowed us to have it all. It's what we end up doing with it that's the problem.

We know from Scripture that God is going to grow up into the image of Christ those who believe the Gospel of the grace of God. He is GOING to do it, sooner or later. More to the point: He is going to do it whether an individual believer realizes it or not. I know I can and should fellowship with anyone who says he/she believes the saving Gospel. I don't need to let any doctrinal disagreement supersede that, for IT is the power of God to salvation, not whether they are 12 In/Out or Calvinistic or Soul Sleepers or Universalistic or laser-straight down my line of what it means to be Triune.

Whatever I may disagree with them on, if they are saved THEY ARE SAVED. God will deal with their error (as I may perceive it), as He will deal with my own errors which are perceived by them. And if they're lying, God will deal with that too.

TOL is a blessed microcosm of all this, none of which is new. Paul even had it back in his day when exposure to everything God had revealed was limited. So I'm not surprised it's only gotten worse since the middle ages.

And having said all that, I know that I will sooner or later allow my flesh to lead me back into stupid disputes with (a) believers, which will likely solve nothing or (b) unbelievers, in which case I'm wasting my time if I'm not focusing them on Christ and Him crucified.
 
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musterion

Well-known member
It's totally straining at gnats to choke down camels if you ask me. There just isn't any conflict between anything presented in Romans vs any other Pauline epistle. Any perceived conflict is contrived.

Then you missed the point of what you just replied to.

And I'm okay with that.
 

Danoh

New member
Personally, I am ever amused by those who appear to need to lord their view over others within MAD, and or pronounce a blanket all out anathema on those within MAD they assert are not preaching their supposed only right version of "the gospel."

One Terrence McKlean is already one too many, lol

I'd rather just share my understanding and explore that of others.

I know well that tomorrow my understanding of one thing or another may or may not remain.

Already my understanding of Romans 10 and other issues is updating itself once more.

Thanks to the worthy challenge these exchanges CAN represent.

That is exactly how MAD eventually resurfaced.

And dear brother O'Hair did not see some things others saw after him - a result, nevertheless, of all that O'Hair did revover.

Thus my above quote of Stam's words.

Words that Stam lived to find having to be pointed out to him.

For no one is the be all, end all Bible Answer Man.

Ol Hank being the exception; in his own mind :chuckle:
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
Personally, I am ever amused by those who appear to need to lord their view over others within MAD, and or pronounce a blanket all out anathema on those within MAD they assert are not preaching their supposed only right version of "the gospel."

One Terrence McKlean is already one too many, lol

I'd rather just share my understanding and explore that of others.

I know well that tomorrow my understanding of one thing or another may or may not remain.

Already my understanding of Romans 10 and other issues is updating itself once more.

Thanks to the worthy challenge these exchanges CAN represent.

That is exactly how MAD eventually resurfaced.

And dear brother O'Hair did not see some things others saw after him - a result, nevertheless, of all that O'Hair did revover.

Thus my above quote of Stam's words.

Words that Stam lived to find having to be pointed out to him.

For no one is the be all, end all Bible Answer Man.

Ol Hank being the exception; in his own mind :chuckle:

Book 'Em
 

Nameless.In.Grace

BANNED
Banned
heart-Jesus-.jpg

Art is forever open to interpretation.

There is no right answer here.

The legalist would say it is not enough.

The Grace/Faith based would say:

My Love and Gratitude are all I have, but even my heart is not worthy of your kingdom. In my hands, nothing I bring, by belief, to You I cling.

The Isms would say:

Wait, let me read some commentaries and reformation based works to properly interpretate what this means.

A Loving Jew would Say:

Jesus is awesome, but He's not God

An angry Jew would say:

Jesus was Jew deceiving scum.

The JW says:

Look, they're giving their heart to a God

A regular person would say:

Ummmm.... I have no idea what a regular person would say.
 

Nameless.In.Grace

BANNED
Banned
Yet you're convinced that,



While knowing what all those people would say.

What do YOU say?

Perhaps to answer you honestly and in harmony with your intentions, could you tell me if that is a heart of gratitude and faith or a heart of human effort?


Signature: "If I've offended you, that's me getting in the way of Jesus. If you search the Scriptures open to only the guidance of God's Spirit to Theologically level me..... I've succeeded."
 

heir

TOL Subscriber
Amen!

There's not one syllable of disagreement there with anything Paul taught ANYWHERE in his epistles.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Where does Bob preach 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV as the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth?
 

Crucible

BANNED
Banned
MAD has no basis in orthodox Christianity. Sorry to burst thy bubble.

If you told anyone of the Reformists, priests, or historical theologians about Darbyist theology, they'd call you a heretic.

But never mind that- it's all about the ~feels~ :rolleyes:
 

Nameless.In.Grace

BANNED
Banned
Poll: Do you agree with this picture?

Don't answer. Fine with me.

I will make this clear.... I am a person of Grace

In my hands, Nothing I bring
To Jesus Love, alone, do I cling

I didn't mean to be frustrating.


Signature: "If I've offended you, that's me getting in the way of Jesus. If you search the Scriptures open to only the guidance of God's Spirit to Theologically level me..... I've succeeded."
 
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