No one need be concerned about eternal damnation as long as they, hear the Gospel and place ALL their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. You cannot place half of your faith in; self, your church doctrines, your theories, your good works/deeds, or anything else. You must place ALL of your faith in Christ and His death and resurrection. If not, you'll be judged by your works (Which will not suffice) and be cast into 'The Lake of Fire' for eternity.
PARADISE ON EARTH---don't we all really want it?
- Thread starter KingdomRose
- Start date
KingdomRose
New member
Once again you cast aspersions without commenting on what was said.
KingdomRose
New member
:rotfl:
Greetings Grosnick,
2 Timothy 4:1,6–8 (KJV): I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Daniel 12:2-3 (KJV): 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Acts 8:5–6,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
A true belief consists believing the Gospel that Philip and the Apostles preached. This gospel contains the things concerning the Kingdom of God and the Name of Jesus Christ. Many put their faith in many other wrong ideas, contrary to this Apostolic teaching.
Kind regards
Trevor
Both the faithful and unfaithful will be judged when Christ returns. They will be raised from the grave.
2 Timothy 4:1,6–8 (KJV): I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Daniel 12:2-3 (KJV): 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
I am not sure how you define “ALL their faith”. Faith is a belief of certain things, and if we believe the wrong things we do not have a true faith in the things of Christ.
Acts 8:5–6,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
A true belief consists believing the Gospel that Philip and the Apostles preached. This gospel contains the things concerning the Kingdom of God and the Name of Jesus Christ. Many put their faith in many other wrong ideas, contrary to this Apostolic teaching.
Kind regards
Trevor
KingdomRose
New member
Trevor, would you elaborate on your post above? I don't quite get what you're saying to GM about hell-fire.
Greetings KingdomRose,
Kind regards
Trevor
I carefully avoided the subject of hell fire. I believe that after the judgement at the return of Christ, the unfaithful will be excluded from the immediate presence of Christ and the faithful and will be thus excluded from the Kingdom of God upon the earth when Jesus sits upon the throne of David in Jerusalem Isaiah 2:1-5. The unfaithful will experience tribulation and suffering in this period of transition from the Kingdoms of men to the Kingdom of God. They will eventually die the second death and return to dust. Fire is a symbol of suffering and trial and destruction and is not literal here. It is based on Gehenna, the rubbish dump outside of Jerusalem, where there was fire and worms.
Kind regards
Trevor
KingdomRose
New member
I agree with what you say.
One thing---I don't believe that Jesus will sit on a physical throne in the earthly city of Jerusalem. Scripture says that he is now in the "real" temple, not made with hands, that God built and not men. There is where Jesus' throne is.
"The main point of what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle that the Lord, not man, set up." (Hebrews 8:1,2, New American Bible)
Greetings again KingdomRose,
Acts 1:10-11 (KJV): 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Zechariah 14:4 (KJV): And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
JWs continue to look up to heaven where Jesus is now, but the followers of Christ are waiting for him to return to the earth to establish his kingdom centred in Jerusalem. At that time God the Father will send Jesus, the Son of God back to the earth, and as stated above he will no longer be in heaven.
The following is a literal picture of when Jesus will sit upon the throne of David, and unlike the JW teaching there will be a remnant of the nations after Armageddon:
Isaiah 2:1-4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
This will be paradise on earth, and the earth will be restored like the Garden of Eden, with Jesus as it’s King.
In response to a discussion I had with my JW friend yesterday, when I said that I believe in the return of Jesus, she said that Jesus is no longer a man, but the following states that Jesus is still a man.
1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV): For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Unlike JWs, I believe in the resurrection of the body of Jesus, and thus he is still a man, but has now been given immortality. He has a spiritual body, a body that has been changed, not replaced.
Kind regards
Trevor
I believe in the literal return of Jesus and the establishment of the Temple in Jerusalem where Jesus will sit upon the literal throne of David. The throne of David was always in literal Jerusalem. When he returns his literal feet will stand upon the Mount of Olives.
Acts 1:10-11 (KJV): 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Zechariah 14:4 (KJV): And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
JWs continue to look up to heaven where Jesus is now, but the followers of Christ are waiting for him to return to the earth to establish his kingdom centred in Jerusalem. At that time God the Father will send Jesus, the Son of God back to the earth, and as stated above he will no longer be in heaven.
The following is a literal picture of when Jesus will sit upon the throne of David, and unlike the JW teaching there will be a remnant of the nations after Armageddon:
Isaiah 2:1-4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
This will be paradise on earth, and the earth will be restored like the Garden of Eden, with Jesus as it’s King.
In response to a discussion I had with my JW friend yesterday, when I said that I believe in the return of Jesus, she said that Jesus is no longer a man, but the following states that Jesus is still a man.
1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV): For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Unlike JWs, I believe in the resurrection of the body of Jesus, and thus he is still a man, but has now been given immortality. He has a spiritual body, a body that has been changed, not replaced.
Kind regards
Trevor
KingdomRose
New member
David's throne in literal Jerusalem was REPRESENTING the throne of Jehovah which was in heaven. The throne that is of prime importance is that throne in heaven, and Jesus will be ruling there in that temple "not made with hands." Do you discount what is said in Hebrews, chapters 8 and 9?
The Scriptures don't say that Jesus will no longer be in heaven. Throughout the Bible God is said to "come down" and yet he didn't literally come down to the earth from heaven. That "coming down" has to do with his paying attention to the earth in a particular way, as he has done in the past.
Exodus 29:45,46
Numbers 35:34
If Jesus took back his fleshly body, he would be taking back his sacrifice, don't you see? He sacrificed it once for all time. He is now a mighty spirit Person, just like God is (John 4:24).
"It is even so written: 'The first man Adam became a living soul.' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (I Corinthians 15:45)
"Even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, that he might lead you to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit." (I Peter 3:18)
Jesus Christ, "the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see." (I Timothy 6:16)
How could a fleshly man survive in that realm? Men can't even look upon that. And doesn't it say in Scripture that flesh cannot be in heaven? (I Corinthians 15:50) Jesus cannot be a spirit person AND a fleshly person. Your idea of "changed, not replaced" is confusing. To change something would mean that it is no longer what it was before.
6days
New member
But surely you must believe that Jesus was bodily resurrected? In fact Jesus ate food to prove to the disciples that He wasn't just a spirit.KingdomRose said:
If you reject the physical resurrection of Jesus, then why did Jesus have to physically die? The cross becomes meaningless, if you are suggesting Jesus only had to spiritually die.
Greetings again KingdomRose,
Hebrews 9:23–28 (KJV): 23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation
As the High Priest went into the Most Holy once a year and then came out to bless the people, so verse 28 states that Jesus will return from heaven.
Acts 3:19–21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Acts 3:19–21 (NWT): 19 “Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out, so that seasons of refreshing may come from Jehovah himself 20 and he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus. 21 Heaven must hold this one within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old.
The above underlined indicates that God will send Jesus, and that he will be in heaven until this time, when he will then leave heaven.
Galatians 2:20 (KJV): I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Both terms “gave his body” and “gave himself” are equivalent and represent how he laid down his life in his crucifixion and death. It does not in any way represent that his body would not be the basis of his resurrection. Acts 2 and the gospel records clearly indicate that the tomb was empty.
1 Corinthians 15:51–53 (KJV): 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Yes the word changed is used, and the above also uses the term “put on”, “this mortal must put on immortality”. There is no hint that we will be a separate body, our old body will not be discarded and buried, but will be the basis of the change. If we are alive when he comes we will be changed.
Kind regards
Trevor
I appreciate your response. Yes, Jesus entered the Most Holy in heaven, the presence of Yahweh, and is now seated at the right hand of God His Father, in His Father’s throne. This throne is not the throne of David, but when Jesus returns he will set up the Kingdom of God upon earth centred in Jerusalem.
Hebrews 9:23–28 (KJV): 23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation
As the High Priest went into the Most Holy once a year and then came out to bless the people, so verse 28 states that Jesus will return from heaven.
In many respects the following is similar to Hebrews 9:28 as it speaks of Jesus leaving heaven and returning:
Acts 3:19–21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Acts 3:19–21 (NWT): 19 “Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out, so that seasons of refreshing may come from Jehovah himself 20 and he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus. 21 Heaven must hold this one within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old.
The above underlined indicates that God will send Jesus, and that he will be in heaven until this time, when he will then leave heaven.
There are many expressions of his sacrifice, and one of these is the fact that he gave his body, another is that gave himself.
Galatians 2:20 (KJV): I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Both terms “gave his body” and “gave himself” are equivalent and represent how he laid down his life in his crucifixion and death. It does not in any way represent that his body would not be the basis of his resurrection. Acts 2 and the gospel records clearly indicate that the tomb was empty.
My understanding of resurrection is that our bodies will be raised from the dead and then changed to immortality. Those that are alive when Jesus returns will be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:51–53 (KJV): 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Yes the word changed is used, and the above also uses the term “put on”, “this mortal must put on immortality”. There is no hint that we will be a separate body, our old body will not be discarded and buried, but will be the basis of the change. If we are alive when he comes we will be changed.
Kind regards
Trevor
KingdomRose
New member
Yes, Jesus was certainly changed. He no longer had a physical body. And he will stay just the way he is now, for eternity. His work on Earth was done. Now he will rule from the spirit realm in heaven, where he dwells in "unapproachable light."
Nope, at some point in the future, Christ will return and be seated on the throne of David for a thousand years: Known as the Millennial Kingdom.
Smart.
The cult that you belong to sure has sold you a bill of goods, haven't they?
Or, so your cult would have you believe.
Hell (Hades) is a literal place that the unbelievers go after they die. The Lake of Fire is a literal place where Satan and his ilk, plus the unsaved will spend eternity.
Evidently, you're leaving out the final judgement that John speaks of in Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
You won't be laughing, then.
It really doesn't matter what you have to say. You've been indoctrinated by the cult of the JWs.