pacifism for true Jesus' followers.
- Thread starter meshak
- Start date
Should have dropped the bomb earlier.
Lon,
I'm trying to understand your logic.
I believe the NC has replaced the OC.
You did not agree, and used OC/OT passages to support your view that it is ok to use self defense, etc.
So, then I showed you OC/OT passages were self defense, was not always used.
My point was that I believe nowhere in the NC can it be shown that self defense, war, capital punishment, etc. is to be carried out by believers in Christ Jesus. In fact, I feel that I have shown that Jesus, Paul, and others have made it clear to not use self defense, capital punishment, war, etc.
Lon
Well-known member
It seems you are a pacifist both politically and by personal conviction. Is that correct?
History is very difficult to wade through as far as war. I don't believe we had a choice at all during WW2. War was virtually thrust upon us.
Slavery ended because of a war. I remember praying fervently for several house-pastors in the former USSR. Several died at the hands of their torturers and I bawled my eyes out. I've done so repeatedly including the churches that were murdered/beheaded in Muslim countries.
I do not like war. I do not like having to have policemen, but I'm not a pacifist. Eventually I will be and will incredibly love being so. I believe, in this day and age, God has called us to protect the fatherless and the widow and I believe it a sin to let evil happen while we do nothing.
A man was beaten and robbed on the street last year while men and women did nothing. Sorry. Pacifism like that is not love. I completely disagree with you on this.
I disagree. If you 'can' stop and evil from happening, and don't, I believe that in and of itself is evil. Yes, absolutely Jesus could send a thousand angels. When Jesus said this to Peter, it was NOT to encourage him to be a pacifist. Rather He said God called Him to it, and not to stop it. Matthew 26:52 not only said that those who lived by the sword, died by it, but to put swords away 'because' it was what was supposed to happen.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Yes.
Well....look at the Apostle Paul. When he was Saul, he was a violent man.
Paul went from a persecuting, evil, violent man before his conversion, to a non-violent pacifist.
All of Paul's post-conversion epistles speak of non-violence. A 180 degree contrast to his violent pre-conversion self.
glorydaz
Well-known member
If I were him, I'd move.
Lon
Well-known member
So you are politically a pacifist too. It conflates the subject. We were asked by the UN to do so.
Are you against having policemen in your city, Tet? How far are we going down this rabbit hole?
Let me state, openly, I hate violence and detest even necessary violence. That said, I believe there is such a thing as 'necessary' violence.
I'm pretty sure we are going to disagree on that. By chance, are you a married man? Have a family? All of this is important. -Lon
Lon
Well-known member
Lots stood by and watched it happen.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Sending people to prison isn't the same as defending innocents.
And Paul got beat up because they always ganged up on him. What's a guy to do?
Lon
Well-known member
And Peter called for the death of Ananias and Sapphira for simply lying. Was that pacifistic of Peter?
LOL...you do know that the UN has a LGBT Czar to oversee the normalization of homosexuality and transgenderism around the world. Should we listen to him too?
No. I grew up in the City of Pittsburgh. I've been robbed, mugged, had my home broken into, car stolen, etc.
I disagree. Putting the adjective "necessary" in front of violence, doesn't mean it's still not violence.
Yep
Yes
Yes
Lon
Well-known member
Chris Mintz was shot in both legs and shot 7 times when he tackled the gunman at Umpqua Community College, saving many of his fellow Christian students' lives.
Chris was not a pacifist. The gunman was not killed but could have been in the struggle.
I believe what Chris Mintz did was from a love for his fellow students and I believe it blessed God.
I pray if such a day comes, I have the courage and love of Chris Mintz.
Lon
Well-known member
Are we talking about the same Peter and Ananias and Sapphira? Acts 5:1-11
Yet, nowhere in the NT do we find Paul organizing a resistance, or fighting back in any way, shape, or form.
I was an absolute pacifist in the '70s when I was under the spell of Hinduism and Buddhism. I practiced 'ahimsa/nonviolence'. I used to catch rattlesnakes around my house, carry them across the creek and let 'em go. When the rooms would get full of wasps I'd move around the house Tai Chi style, stick my finger out to wasps and have them crawl up on it. Then I'd take 'em to the door and let them fly, free-e-e-e-e!
When we began to have children, I began to emerge from some of my delusions. When I became a Christian, I wrestled deeply with pacifism and what appeared to be pacifist positions in the NT. At that time, I had associations with pacifist Amish and Mennonite groups as well as having an elderly Amish man living with us for quite some time. When we began homeschooling and did all seven, I was listening to a tape by Jonathan Lindville in which he advocated pacificism to the point of no government involvement, not voting, nothing. Homeschooling was illegal in Tennessee at the time. I saw through and came to disagree with Mr. Lindville's teachings. My wife and I became board members of the Tenn. Home Education Association and worked for a bill to make homeschooling legal in Tennessee. We succeeded(well, I give credit to others more than us).
I've pretty much run the gamut of movements and and the various ism's.
Pacifism is an idealistic illusion at this time which won't be realized in truth until the Prince of Peace returns.
Yes.
Let me clarify.
The NC was implemented at the cross. However, the OC was still in place.
IOW, there was an overlap of 40 years from 30AD to 70AD (Heb 8:13). The Apostle Paul was the first person taught the NC by the risen Lord Jesus Christ (1 Tim 1:16). Paul was a minister of the NC (2 Cor 3:6)
Acts 5:1-11 predates Paul's conversion, and the NC teachings of Paul.