pacifism for true Jesus' followers.

[JudgeRightly]

Yes.

I don't know... I imagine there are plenty of bad people who have drawn the sword have died of old age or natural causes, and those who didn't were slaughtered by those who did...

Can you show me a passage from Jesus and/or Paul about "self defense"?

How about one from the Old Testament, not by either Jesus or Paul, but from Moses...

And it came to pass in the days of Amraphel king of Shinar, Arioch king of Ellasar, Chedorlaomer king of Elam, and Tidal king of nations,that they made war with Bera king of Sodom, Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela (that is, Zoar).All these joined together in the Valley of Siddim (that is, the Salt Sea).Twelve years they served Chedorlaomer, and in the thirteenth year they rebelled.In the fourteenth year Chedorlaomer and the kings that were with him came and attacked the Rephaim in Ashteroth Karnaim, the Zuzim in Ham, the Emim in Shaveh Kiriathaim,and the Horites in their mountain of Seir, as far as El Paran, which is by the wilderness.Then they turned back and came to En Mishpat (that is, Kadesh), and attacked all the country of the Amalekites, and also the Amorites who dwelt in Hazezon Tamar.And the king of Sodom, the king of Gomorrah, the king of Admah, the king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela (that is, Zoar) went out and joined together in battle in the Valley of Siddimagainst Chedorlaomer king of Elam, Tidal king of nations, Amraphel king of Shinar, and Arioch king of Ellasar—four kings against five.Now the Valley of Siddim was full of asphalt pits; and the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled; some fell there, and the remainder fled to the mountains.Then they took all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah, and all their provisions, and went their way.They also took Lot, Abram’s brother’s son who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.Then one who had escaped came and told Abram the Hebrew, for he dwelt by the terebinth trees of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol and brother of Aner; and they were allies with Abram.Now when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his three hundred and eighteen trained servants who were born in his own house, and went in pursuit as far as Dan.He divided his forces against them by night, and he and his servants attacked them and pursued them as far as Hobah, which is north of Damascus.So he brought back all the goods, and also brought back his brother Lot and his goods, as well as the women and the people.And the king of Sodom went out to meet him at the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King’s Valley), after his return from the defeat of Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him. - Genesis 14:1-17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis14:1-17&version=NKJV

LOL....the context is providing (working/a.k.a. earning money)for the family...not killing people.

Does "providing for your family" also mean keeping them safe from harm?

 

[JudgeRightly]

(Matt 5:39) But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

steko, is turning the other cheek "self defense"?

If someone steals from you $1000, should you turn the other cheek and give them another $1000? Your position is unworkable.

 

[ok doser]

(Matt 5:39) But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

if someone kills an innocent child, should we, as followers of Christ, offer them another child to murder?

 

[JudgeRightly]

I disagree Lon.

In the New Testament, both Jesus and Paul give many verses supporting Pacifism. Here are just some:


Mt 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Lu 6:27 But I say to you that listen, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

Lu 6:35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return

Mt 5:39 But I say to you, Do not make use of force against an evil man;

Mt 26:52 Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

1 Peter 3:9 Do not return evil for evil or reviling for reviling; but on the contrary bless, for to this you have been called, that you may obtain a blessing.

Ro 12.17-21 Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good .

1Th 5:15 See that none of you repays evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to all.

1 Peter 2:23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he trusted to him who judges justly.

Eph 6.12 For our struggle is not against enemies of blood and flesh

2 Co 10:4 The weapons with which we fight are not human weapons, but are mighty for God in overthrowing strong fortresses.

Matt 10.28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul

Every single one of those verses is directed towards individuals, not governments. That means that it would be wrong to use them as governmental policy towards criminals, both foreign and domestic.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Did you support the bombing?

Most of America did.

Lon said the following about the bombing of Syria:



Do you agree with Lon?

Were you "very much for it"?

9 Syrians died in that bombing, including 4 children.

Assad killed 72, including 20 children.

So....somehow...killing 9 (including 4 children) is "peaceable", in order to prevent another 72 (including 20 children)?

Nowhere in the NT, will you find Jesus or Paul telling believers in Christ Jesus to do such a thing. In fact, the teachings of Jesus and Paul tell us to do the exact OPPOSITE.

So, what, would you rather letting the murderer live to murder another day? Innocent people being killed is a guaranteed part of war, however, it doesn't mean that war itself is inherently wrong. A military should do everything in it's power to minimize the number of innocent people who are killed.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Was Syria ever a threat to the United States?

Our Constitution was never threatened by Syria.

Why would we attack a sovereign country that was no threat to us?

Syria was indeed a threat to us. And we as a country had the wherewithall to do something about it.

 

[tetelestai]

So, what, would you rather letting the murderer live to murder another day? Innocent people being killed is a guaranteed part of war, however, it doesn't mean that war itself is inherently wrong. A military should do everything in it's power to minimize the number of innocent people who are killed.

You guys can keep saying this till you're blue in the face, but so far not one of you can provide scripture from Jesus or Paul to back your claims.

Moreover, the words of Jesus and Paul say the exact opposite of what you guys are claiming, and prove you guys wrong.

 

[tetelestai]

Syria was indeed a thread to us. And we as a country had the wherewithall to do something about it.

LOL...how the heck was Syria a threat to us? Was Assad planning on invading New York City?

 

[ok doser]

You guys can keep saying this ...

if someone kills an innocent child, should we, as followers of Christ, offer them another child to murder?

 

[ok doser]

i'll keep saying it as long as you keep ignoring it

because it convicts you

 

[JudgeRightly]

LOL...you do know that the UN has a LGBT Czar to oversee the normalization of homosexuality and transgenderism around the world. Should we listen to him too?

The UN shouldn't exist anyways, and America shouldn't be part of it at all.

No. I grew up in the City of Pittsburgh. I've been robbed, mugged, had my home broken into, car stolen, etc.

Do you think that if you had a way to defend yourself, that any of that would have happened to you? Or do you think that the police should take care of everything? Because (and I mean no disrespect to law enforcement when I say this) currently most of the time the police are called it's to clean up a crime, not to stop it before it happens.

Law enforcement agencies have become cleanup crews for crime, instead of being a deterrent against crime. And it doesn't help when they can't even do their jobs without fear of the public outcry against them for doing it.

I disagree. Putting the adjective "necessary" in front of violence, doesn't mean it's still not violence.

As far as I'm aware, no one here is saying it's not violence, just that it's necessary.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Again, the New Covenant was not put into place until the cross.

We are now fully in the NC. Are sins have been forgiven, God doesn't even remember them.

(Heb 8:12) For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

All sins? Does that mean that the sin of the murderer has been forgiven? and he doesn't have to worry about going to hell, so he can just murder away and there's no consequence?

 

[tetelestai]

if someone kills an innocent child, should we, as followers of Christ, offer them another child to murder?

Nope.

But if you kill them, then you are no different than they are.

 

[tetelestai]

As far as I'm aware, no one here is saying it's not violence, just that it's necessary.

Again, nowhere in the NT does Jesus or Paul say to use "necessary" violence. They both say the exact opposite.

(Rom 12:19) Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

 

[tetelestai]

All sins? Does that mean that the sin of the murderer has been forgiven?

Every sin, even murder.

People don't go to heaven or hell based on sins. If they did, everyone would go to hell.

People go to heaven or hell based on faith in Christ Jesus. Those who have faith in Christ Jesus have eternal life, those who don't go to hell.

Sins have absolutely nothing to do with it. They were ALL paid for at the cross with His blood.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Yet, nowhere in the NT do we find Paul organizing a resistance, or fighting back in any way, shape, or form.

Here's what Paul said about the government enforcing the death penalty:

So Paul said, “I stand at Caesar’s judgment seat, where I ought to be judged. To the Jews I have done no wrong, as you very well know.For if I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is nothing in these things of which these men accuse me, no one can deliver me to them. I appeal to Caesar.” - Acts 25:10-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts25:10-11&version=NKJV

He is affirming the government's right to put people to death who deserve it.

 

[tetelestai]

He is affirming the government's right to put people to death who deserve it.

Paul is referring to the laws of the Roman Empire.

The laws of the Roman Empire were not the Word of God.

 

[ok doser]

Nope.

But if you kill them, then you are no different than they are.

ok, good - we're making progress

so we shouldn't offer them another child to murder :thumb:

if they are about to murder another child, should we stop them?

 

[tetelestai]

if they are about to murder another child, should we stop them?

Yes, but not by killing them.

 

[ok doser]

(Matt 5:39) But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.

if someone kills an innocent child, should we, as followers of Christ, offer them another child to murder?

Nope.

ok, good - we're making progress

so we shouldn't offer them another child to murder :thumb:

if they are about to murder another child, should we stop them?

Yes...

doesn't that contradict "do not resist an evil person"?