It's a discussion....don't know why you're so offended....wish you would stay.
Well, as you extend the laurel, I'll stay. I'm not mad, I just know when I'm throwing effort after things that bear no fruit.
I'll stay as long as God is glorified and we take account for what is being said.
There are not a lot of scriptures given to pacifism or war in scripture. The reason, I believe, is that the gospels and epistles are dedicated to our faith and not a lot else. The scriptures do mention soldiers, in fact the Apostle Paul tells Timothy to be a 'good soldier' and Paul uses soldiers for godly examples of perseverance and self-discipline. Perhaps some of this will come out more in ensuing posts.
Jesus was 100% innocent, and He stood there while they tortured Him, mocked Him, beat Him, etc., and all the while they were killing Him, He said "Father forgive them..."
Are we to be exactly like Him? We can example Him, but He was called specifically, for this purpose. It was His 'job' covenanted with the Father. He had NO qualms taking a whip and cracking it in the temple across the backs of evil money changers.
Hebrews 12:4ff God still disciplines those He loves. Still. I'm all for non-lethal correction. I used Trump's example because he told Assad that he was going to bomb their planes so they could get out of the way. Any killed were kept to a minimum with very clear warning. You said you were against that. I'm very much for it. No lives needed to be lost with his action. He was seeking to destroy their 'means' of killing others. I couldn't have been happier - he literally told them the day before that the U.S. was coming and what they were going to do.
Peter was still under the OC.
So was the Lord Jesus Christ. Different jobs, imho.
What if forgiving an enemy that harms your family is what God wants, as opposed to killing someone who tries to harm your family?
A blown-off shoulder is hardly the worst thing that can happen to them. How far do you take resisting? Is it a sin to file a theft report? Isn't that 'resisting' an evil person? How about an insult? If you insult back, is that 'resisting' and evil person? How far? What is the 'logical' end and conclusion of such? If just me, I can take quite a bit and turn my cheek a lot. If I am seeing another harmed, it seems to me not coming to another's aid is a greater sin than taking that action. To me, pacifism 'seems' cowardice, hatred, and/or indifference.
I paid to support a child in Africa. A Muslim regime came in and wiped out villages. I 'resisted' them by providing for my sponsor child to be refuged in another country when they wanted him dead. Whether I punched them in the face, took food from their tables, or $ from their pockets by doing so is of little consequence imho. My opposition caused them violence, no matter how you look at it. I would have done it again, and again, and again.
Come on Lon....besides still sacrificing animals for sin atonement, do you make a pilgrimage to Jerusalem 3 times a year?
Forgive me, but I don't think you were paying attention: The Jews still had to do it until it became impossible. "Whatever Jews 'do' gentiles can take a cue." God doesn't change and His values are expressed in the Jewish faith and practice. I don't have to go to Jerusalem to understand what God desires. Paul quoted Psalms regarding protecting those who could not protect themselves. God doesn't change and when Paul gives a direction to gentiles, to do the same, we should pay attention. Whether you agree or not, I would protect you and your family, whether you see that as a Christian gesture/expression or not. I would be laying my life on the line for a friend.
Jesus said there was
no greater Love (not even pacifism gets that :noway: ).
God made it clear that He never wanted a temple made with human hands.
:think: Exodus 25
Yet, the OC is based on God dwelling in the temple.
Or tabernacle.....
God never wanted that. In the NC, God does not dwell in a temple, those in Christ Jesus are the temple of God, and God dwells in us...that's a drastic change.
Never? Exodus 36 :think:
Disagree.
If a non-priest( NOT from the tribe of Levi, NOT from the family of Aaron) made a sacrifice at the temple, the punishment was death. No such penalty in the NC. That's not what God wanted.
I used to think I was somewhat New Covenant. I never believed that God didn't command those actions. You advocate that God didn't want any of the O.T. quite a bit. I don't think I could have been New Covenant, even when I thought I was, if it means this. :nono:
Again, don't know why you're so mad...and wish you would stay.
Well this is part of the accusatory I was talking about. I'm not mad. I'm just not seeing being able to communicate if I or others are misread. I haven't seen anyone mad in thread. You comments with Meshak were a bit of hand-slapping and LOL's about people getting mad or being unable to use scriptures. Such plays out: Why and bother if I'm cast as being unable to carry a cogent and scriptural conversation. I realize others were involved, but I didn't see them shirking or getting angry or frustrated either.
You say that, but I'm still not sure I was ever New Covenant when I thought I was. I didn't believe what you do, when I thought I was. I realize you are agreeing with me, but I'm wondering from your other comments this post, whether you believe God changes or not. He commanded a tabernacle, but didn't want a tabernacle. He only allowed priests, but now if we walked into God's presence without Christ's mediation, we'd not be burned to a crisp, etc.
In the OC, the Israelites were told to KILL every living creature in Jericho. Think about that....those Israelites had to kill babies, little kids, grandma's, puppy's, women, crippled people, teenage girls, every creature. They killed every living creature.
When I was New Covenant, I believe God demanded exactly that. What do you believe as a New Covenant guy?
Think about how different today is compared to when the Israelites had to kill every living creature in Jericho.
Again, I believe God demanded exactly that and that it was wholly in keeping with His righteous demands and character. What do
you believe as a New Covenant guy? It 'seems' to me, that you think Judaism was a perversion against God's character and nature. Is that true? I know what I believed as a New Covenantalist. What do you believe as a New Covenantalist?
Again, correct. However, the covenant changed, and it changed because Christ Jesus fulfilled the OC. We now live in the NC.
He didn't change. He still detests the O.T. things He detested. Mercy is not a lack of His righteous nature and demands. It is a 'staying' of His righteousness. We, as advocates for His mercy, must embrace that. I don't think Jim Elliot, for instance, was foolish for not defending themselves. They made the salvation of that tribe of paramount importance. HOWEVER I think married men shouldn't have been the ones to make that choice. God had given them a job before they received or took on the other. Life was very hard on their families for that choice.
God is able to compensate and bring beauty from ashes, but that doesn't mean the best choices were made.
Those who have faith in Christ Jesus are the brothers and sisters in Christ. I see you as a brother in Christ.
Thanks. I had misread your 'but' the post prior. Meshak does not believe anybody who advocates anything but pacifism, is a brother or sister in Christ. She calls us 'fake' and 'pretend.' Important to this thread? Only inasmuch as it is her thread and she expresses it.
I disagree.
Exclaiming I'm against killing and war is not the same thing as advocating killing and war.
Same mistake, I assumed your 'well' was a counter to my claim of being mutually in Christ, previously.
Thanks for clarification.
I'm totally happy calling myself "replacement". The NC has replaced the OC. Those in Christ Jesus are the Israel of God. Those in Christ Jesus are the children of Abraham.
Helps.
