pacifism for true Jesus' followers.

KingdomRose

KingdomRose

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balut55 said:
God placed people in positions of power. He uses Satan's minions to punish for vengeance. If tribulations is the day of the lord than why would you say it isn't Jesus that brings the tribulations? Doesn't Satan have to get permission? Hasn't God allowed Satan full reign with parameters? Wasn't this outlined in the book of Job? He comes like a thief in the night.

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

What is the day of the lord? Some say it is the Devils wrath. I disagree. The book of Job tells me God is in control at all times.


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You are quite wrong, balut55. First of all, God did not literally place people in positions of power. He ALLOWS them to be there. He doesn't USE Satan's minions to punish people. He allows them to be there so that some form of control can be had over chaos. Satan doesn't have to get permission to do every little thing he does. He was granted, back in Job's day, control over the world. Satan challenged Jehovah over the idea that any man would curse Him to His face if He let a man suffer. Jehovah has allowed Satan to prove his contention. Yes, God has allowed Satan full reign over the world of mankind alienated from Jehovah.

"So he [Satan] brought him [Jesus] up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time; and the Devil said to him: 'I will give you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been delivered to me, and to whomever I wish I give it.'" (Luke 4:5,6)

"The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." (I John 5:19)

"Down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth." (Revelation 12:9)


The Day of the Lord is the end of this system of things, during which Jesus is directing his true church to warn the world of the coming Day of Jehovah, which will be ARMAGEDDON. We are in the "day of the Lord" now, and we know that the time for Satan to rule this world is drawing quickly to a close. Armageddon is not Satan's wrath. It is God's own wrath against all of the evil of this world.
 
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jsanford108

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While I think you have good points, Meshak, your overall conclusion is flawed. Now, knowing that you are a non-trinitarians, such derivations make sense. However, even then, if Christ serves the God of the ages, that God would never change, right? This implies that the God of the OT is the same in the NT. A reasonable conclusion would be that the same God who called on Prophets to slay false prophets (evidenced in Kings several times) and who slew the firstborn of Egypt, would only disapprove of needless murder. Something quite different from "violence." Violence encompasses righteous as well as unrighteous acts. Murder is solely unrighteous. As stated before, Christ driving people from the Temple could be classified as "violence." God destroying Sodom and Gomorrah could be classified as an act of "violence."


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meshak

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jsanford108 said:
While I think you have good points, Meshak, your overall conclusion is flawed. Now, knowing that you are a non-trinitarians, such derivations make sense. However, even then, if Christ serves the God of the ages, that God would never change, right? This implies that the God of the OT is the same in the NT. A reasonable conclusion would be that the same God who called on Prophets to slay false prophets (evidenced in Kings several times) and who slew the firstborn of Egypt, would only disapprove of needless murder. Something quite different from "violence." Violence encompasses righteous as well as unrighteous acts. Murder is solely unrighteous. As stated before, Christ driving people from the Temple could be classified as "violence." God destroying Sodom and Gomorrah could be classified as an act of "violence."


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Your commentary is not of Jesus. You don't know Jesus, your Lord is not Jesus. Your lord is your organization and trinity doctrine.

good day.
 
Tnkrbl123!

Tnkrbl123!

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6days said:
I don't think it's quite that simple, to use that one verse to dismiss all arguments from 'pacifists'. We need to look at all of Christ's teachings. Although I am not in total agreement with Meshak, she does present scripture that we need to wrestle with, and try to understand in context..... and try to make it relevant in our lives. How does "love your enemy" look like when you are drafted to fight the Vietcong? Are you justified in killing "enemy" soldiers simply because of your duty to country? I dunno... Likewise would German soldiers who were Christians in WW2 be justified in killing American soldiers because of duty to country?? I am sympathetic to brothers and sisters in Christ....sincere followers of Jesus who are pacifist to one degree or another.
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meshak said:
It is just like Jesus' first coming down to earth, they expected Jesus to be Jews' king and destroy Romans who are oppressing.
But Jesus did not do that.
You are expecting Jesus wrong again repeating the same mistake about His role.
When are you going to realize or learn about God and Jesus' love?
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Yes! And this is exactly why so many did not believe in Him. they were all expecting their Savior to come and overthrow the Roman empire that was oppressing them and overthrow Cesar and actually rule as an emperor and Lord (“Lord” in Greek = “Kurios” - what they also called the roman emperors back then. The Roman emperors likened themselves to gods and in every respect considered themselves to be divine.) The Jews expected their Messiah to be their king on earth and rule the empire and free them from their oppression in the same way the Israelites were delivered from Egyptian rule. This was their expectation at the time (when they did not have God's full revelation to understand at the time and only had the Old Testament prophesies to go by) and that is why they had Jesus crucified. They had a certain expectation of what the Messiah would look like and when they didn't fulfill THEIR ideas of what the Messiah was they killed Him. But then there were those who believed and understood what the prophets were talking about and understood that Jesus is in fact the Messiah, but His kingdom is not an earthly kingdom at all and Jesus does rule by earthly standards. He kept telling everybody the Kingdom of Heaven was at hand and those who were truly God's understood and believed and followed Jesus to their own death (many, many, innumerable believers in the first century did) and did not fight back because earthly rules do not apply in the Kingdom of God and in the Kingdom of Heaven that Jesus repeatedly proclaimed.

I mean I completely understand the "just war" theory and I used to believe that and I still did just up until recently until I took a deep reflective look at myself and my fears of having to follow Jesus even in the face of my own death in case of war. While studying Christian Ethics I had to reflect on WHY I believed what I did even though the Bible was telling me something else. While studying and reflecting I came to understand that Jesus changed the game and His Kingdom was at hand and had different rules than our earthly kingdoms and now the reign and rule of Christ is the rule that governs the life of the believer. I never judge those who believe in the Just War theory - the belief that it is ok to war under the right circumstances - because it is was I used to strongly believe and defend. I still struggle with this new understanding and I can see how it can seem that going to war in order to defend lives of the innocent and those who cannot defend themselves can seem the right thing to do. I used to believe and defend it vigorously (and admittedly I still WANT to believe that because the new understanding is scary and goes against everything I know about my human nature and on earth) but Jesus came to proclaim a new law the law of love and announce the arrival of His Kingdom. I agree when you say that it is not difficult to understand but it is terribly difficult to accept and live out. That is what the Holy Spirit does, He helps us place our whole lives in the trust of Jesus. But when Jesus established His kingdom He established new laws of love and the most important thing we can do is put our complete trust in God to judge and defend and we need to share this wonderful news of Jesus’ life, death and resurrection! That is our goal, mission and call - all disciples have the call to proclaim the gospel- and we do that by living our lives in a way that is holy and pleasing to God to show everybody that what we believe is truth and it is truth so much that we are willing to die for it in the process.
 
meshak

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You are so blessing and blessed, Tnk:)

You are breath of fresh air. You are so young yet understand what is going on in Christian community.

Jesus teaching is all about love. His love is not worldly love. It is pure and just love.

It is not difficult to understand if we abandone our worldly way of mentality and life style.

If we are not seeking to be true to Jesus we will never accept His simple yet loving teaching.

Jesus says His followers are not of the world. The military is of the world. His followers should stay away from all violent and the wars.

thank you Tnk for your eloquent and sincere commentary.:)
 
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jsanford108

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Question Meshak:
Would you say that war and "violence" was justified in the Old Testament? (As it was at times commanded or perpetrated by God)

As a follow up, if Christ teaches "never to war" (my phrasing), would that not be in disagreement with God?


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Tambora

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Tnkrbl123! said:
Jesus came to proclaim a new law the law of love
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What "new law of love" was that?


all disciples have the call to proclaim the gospel
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All disciples did not proclaim the same gospel.
The twelve disciples were proclaiming a gospel (Luke 9:6), and were told to tell no one Jesus was the Christ (Luke 9:20-21).
That certainly is not the gospel WE should be proclaiming.
 
meshak

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jsanford108 said:
Question Meshak:
Would you say that war and "violence" was justified in the Old Testament? (As it was at times commanded or perpetrated by God)
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Yes, God commanded to destroy wicked nations.

But you are not God. You seem to believe God is telling you to wage war against your enemy country.

Jesus was sent to fulfilled the law of "love".

Jesus was sent to teach us to learn how to love God and one another.

Jesus was sent to show us example of God's love.

Jesus was given authority to be our Lord and Savior.

So if you want inherit God's kingdom, you better listen to Him.
 
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jsanford108

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meshak said:
Yes, God commanded to destroy wicked nations.

But you are not God. You seem to believe God is telling you to wage war against your enemy country.

Jesus was sent to fulfilled the law of "love".

Jesus was sent to teach us to learn how to love God and one another.

Jesus was sent to show us example of God's love.

Jesus was given authority to be our Lord and Savior.

So if you want inherit God's kingdom, you better listen to Him.
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So you would agree that Christ's teachings are contrary to the examples demonstrated by God in the OT?




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Tambora

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meshak said:
God is just and perfect, not any human being is perfect nor just.

So you have no right to judge other nation to destroy.
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Not the point he is making, Meshak.

GOD commanded His people to have a trained military force ready for battle.
And GOD never rescinded that command.
If GOD commands His people to have a military force, Jesus is not going to oppose the will of His Father.
 
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jsanford108

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meshak said:
God is just and perfect, not any human being is perfect nor just.

So you have no right to judge other nation to destroy.
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That doesn't really answer the question. Would you say that Christ's teachings are contrary to acts demonstrated by God in the OT?

Further, is Christ just a human? If so, then you would have to accept his teachings as "human teachings," unable to adequately discern between what is being spoken by the Holy Spirit/God, and what is just human conjecture.


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jsanford108

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meshak said:
Nope, you just don't want to accept the fact that you are not perfect nor just like God.
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At no point have I denied my imperfection.

You seem to be avoiding a proper answer. Tambora was able to discern my meaning. So I feel as though you are trying to keep from answering a clear and direct question.



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meshak

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jsanford108 said:
At no point have I denied my imperfection.
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It is clear that this world is of the world because Satan is in charge.

You don't seem to get this simple Jesus' principle.

suit yourselves getting involved with the world's violent affairs.

As for me, I strive to spread Jesus' word of "love".

It is a grave sin to misrepresent Jesus to the world, getting involved with violent affairs of the world.
 
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jsanford108

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meshak said:
It is clear that this world is of the world because Satan is in charge.

You don't seem to get this simple Jesus' principle.

suit yourselves getting involved with the world's violent affairs.

As for me, I strive to spread Jesus' word of "love".

It is a grave sin to misrepresent Jesus to the world, getting involved with violent affairs of the world.
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No one has misrepresented Jesus in response to your post. Not I, Tambora, etc.

My point here Meshak is not to denounce pacifism (despite my disagreement with your denotation), but to expose a glaring contradiction in your reasoning and assessment.

Failure to simply answer clearly conveyed questions implies that you notice the contradictions and are choosing to ignore them because they obliterate your reasoning and argument.


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