ECT Our triune God

keypurr

Well-known member
.

Then show us the context to prove your point.
I would have to copy the NT for you.

Deity was already in His created body.

You told me two post ago that Deity cannot be created?
How did it get there?


Scripture states plainly that Jesus is God.

You have to willfully deny this truth.

My life would be a lot simpler if it was in scripture. I do not see a three piece god friend.


The Greek tells us that the 'image' is a physical representation.
Can you show me that so I can explore that theory with my tools?

Peace
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
I say the same thing about you too. Who is right?

Jesus is the Son of God, NOT GOD THE SON

Son of God in Scripture is a claim to sharing equality and the same nature as God. The Pharisees understood His claims and went to stone Him for blasphemy. You are a modern Gentile, so miss the biblical significance of claiming to be LORD (YHWH/God), I AM, Alpha and Omega, Judge, Savior, etc. Other verses show that He is God. His position at the right hand of God shows equality, not creature subordination. The cumulative evidence is needed as well as a first vs 21st century mindset.
 

Gill White

New member
He is not our brother. He has a generic jesus, not the biblical one (2 Cor. 11:4).

What does the Godhead/deity consist of:

''The Spirit of God'' was not created.

God is diety, and deity cannot be created

So do we truly understand the Fulness of God's Spirit:

The seven Spirits of God, everything about Him.

They are not separate people/person's: This is the completeness and fulness of who God is:

God's knowledge was never created

God's wisdom was never created

God's nature was never created

God's understanding was never created

The fear of the LORD was never created

The power of God was never created

God's invisible quality was never created

Isa 11:2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him- the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of advice and power, the Spirit of knowledge and fear of the LORD.
Isa 11:3 He will gladly bear the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what his eyes see or decide by what his ears hear.

These are not separate beings/persons:

The Godhead was ''upon/in'' Jesus Christ:

Jesus Christ is God's only begotten Son.

I have given you my understanding of God, which I see as biblical:

What is your understanding of ''Godhead/deity of God''
 

Gill White

New member
Son of God in Scripture is a claim to sharing equality and the same nature as God.

As I understand from bible, I see that Jesus was born with the ''same nature'' that the first Adam had, BEFORE he sinned.

Jesus' nature was perfect and pure and knew no sin.

Jesus listened to God:

Isa 42:1-6
(1) Here is my servant, whom I support. Here is my chosen one, with whom I am pleased. I have put my Spirit on him. He will bring justice to the nations.

The spirit upon Jesus was not created

(2) He will not cry out or raise his voice. He will not make his voice heard in the streets.
(3) He will not break off a damaged cattail. He will not even put out a smoking wick. He will faithfully bring about justice.
(4) He will not be discouraged or crushed until he has set up justice on the earth. The coastlands will wait for his teachings.
(5) The LORD God created the heavens and stretched them out. He shaped the earth and all that comes from it. He gave life to the people who are on it and breath to those who walk on it. This is what the LORD God says:
(6) I, the LORD, have called you to do what is right. I will take hold of your hand. I will protect you. I will appoint you as my promise to the people, as my light to the nations.

Jesus is the chosen one from God: God called Jesus to do what is right, God took hold of Jesus' hand and protected Jesus, God appointed Jesus as His promise to the people. Jesus is God's light to the nations.

The first Adam lost that pure nature, through disobedience:
Through obedience, the second Adam's (Jesus) remained in that nature, God was with Jesus:

Heb 5:7-8
(7) During his life on earth, Jesus prayed to God, who could save him from death. He prayed and pleaded with loud crying and tears, and he was heard because of his devotion to God.
(8) Although Jesus was the Son of God, he learned to be obedient through his sufferings.

A person can learn about temptations without entering or giving into the temptation:

One can give in, to the temptation or one can walk away from the temptation:

I do believe that God was speaking and guiding Jesus all the time as recorded in Isa 42:6

Rom 5:19
(19) Clearly, through one person's disobedience humanity became sinful, and through one person's obedience humanity will receive God's approval.

Heb 10:9 Then Christ says, "I have come to do what you want." He did away with sacrifices in order to establish the obedience that God wants.

''in order to establish the obedience that God wants''
 

Gill White

New member
I have some more notes for you, but you will not like them. There Pauls post when Godrulz was posting on this subject

Godrulz post

I already told you that there are verses that say Jesus raised Himself from the dead, God raised Him from the dead, the Father raised Him, the Holy Spirit raised Him (cf. verses to show that all also created, yet one Creator).

This is further evidence of the trinity. Your proof texts that the triune God raised Him does not negate the verses that give credit to each personal distinction within God.

Pauls Rebuttal

Really, let's review one of my old post...

"I lay down my life in order to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down on my own. I have power to lay it down, and power to take it up again. This commandment I have received from my Father."

Your argument is that Jesus is saying that he will raise himself, and since in other verses it says that God raised Jesus, then Jesus must be God.

First let me say that just plain common sense destroys this argument. The Bible is very clear that Jesus died. It does not say that part of him died, it says "Jesus died" (all of him). The Platonic argument that only his human side died is just that, Platonic (from Greek philosophy). Even if you believe that, if only part of him died, then he is not truly dead.

So if we say that Jesus raised himself, we then have to come to the conclusion that Jesus is not dead because he is alive enough to raise himself. So our only alternative is to say that the word of God is wrong when it says that Jesus died. So now we are in a position that says that the Bible is incorrect. This is ludicrous, the Bible is not wrong and it is utterly clear that Jesus died.

This also brings up the point that if Jesus is Almighty God, and God is immortal, how can you kill God?

Even from a Trinitarian point of view, this verse does not work. In Trinitarian theology the three separate persons have their distinct roles. The Father is the one who is supposed to have raised Jesus not the Son. No Trinitarian theologian would agree that the Son raised himself the same way they would never agree that the Father was crucified on the cross. The idea that Jesus raised himself is anti-Trinitarian. So if you believe that Jesus raised himself, congratulations, you belong to a denomination that is anti-Trinitarian. Look at what a Catholic Bible the NAB which is about as Trinitarian as it gets, says about this verse:

Footnote on Jn. 10:17-18: "Power to take it up again" – contrasts the role of the Father as the efficient cause of the resurrection in Acts 2:24, 4:10 etc. Romans 1:4, 4:24.

Now let us see what this verse really means.

First the word here translated as "power" is exousia. It occurs just over 100 times, in a majority of these occurrences the RV translates it as "authority," and 10 times as "right." It is not the common word for "power" which is dunamis which means - power, strength, ability.

Both AV and RV translate exousia as "right," for instance, in Rev. 22:14:

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right (exousia) to the tree of life."

This obviously does not mean that obeying God’s commands gives a man the phisical power to raise himself from the dead to immortality, but that he is thereby granted a right to it.

Even more to the point is Jn 1:12:

"But to those that did accept him he gave power (exousia, RV- right) to become children of God."

The AV margins gives "right or privilege." Believers have been given the right or privilege of becoming children of God, they have not been given the power to become the children of God.

These passages above illustrate what Jesus meant when he said he had exousia – the right to take up his life again after having laid it down in death.

As to who actually raised Jesus from the dead, the Scriptures leave not the slightest doubt. Time after time we are told that God raised him from the dead. Consider very particularly the record in Acts 2 for a clear understanding of the relation between Christ and God. Acts 2:22 states,

"Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN accredited by God to by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him."

It then says in verse 24,

"But God raised him up."

Then in verses 25-28 it speaks of the promise that God made to David.

"For David says of him: Because you (GOD) will not abandon my soul (Jesus) to the netherworld, nor will you suffer your holy one to see corruption."

Verse 30 -32 goes on to say on the same subject:

"But since he was a prophet (David) and knew that God had sworn an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants upon his thrown, he foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that neither was he abandoned to the netherworld nor did his flesh see corruption. GOD RAISED THIS JESUS, of this we are all witnesses."

This next verse is about as clear as it can get:

Acts 10:40 – This MAN God raised on the third day."

Here are a few more verses which all state that God raised Jesus from the dead. Please look them all up.

Acts 3:15 ; Ephesians 1:19-21 ; Heb. 13:20 ; Acts 13:30, 33, 34, 37 ; Acts 17:31 ; Rom. 6:4 ; 2 Cor. 4:14 ; Gal. 1:1 .

One thing to especially notice of John 10:17-18 is, it says:

"I have the power to take it up again. This commandment I have received from my Father."

It should be noted that the very context of these verses quoted to support the Trinity are directly contrary to the all-powerful, co-equal, none greater or less theory. The Father gave his Son a commandment. This is not equality.

One last thing, let us look at another verse on the same subject to see even more clearly that Jesus did not say or mean that he would resurrect himself. We go to Mark 14:58:

"We heard him say, I will destroy this temple made with hands and within three days I will build another not made with hands."

If we insist that when Jesus says that he will build another temple that it means that he will resurrect himself, then when he says that he will destroy the temple, that has to mean that he will kill himself.

Did Jesus kill himself? No. Someone else did it. Did Jesus raise himself? No. Someone else did it, God. You cannot have it both ways. You must apply the same rule to both sides.

It is very clear who raised Jesus. Let us end this study with two verses.

Acts 3:13 – "The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our ancestors, has glorified his servant Jesus."

Who glorified his servant? The God of Abraham, Jacob, the God of our ancestors. Do you interpret the verse above as if Jesus is the God of our ancestors? Of course not. Jesus is his servant.

Acts 5:30 – "The God of our ancestors raised Jesus."

So who raised Jesus?

1 Jesus.

2 The God of our ancestors.

3 Obama

If you picked any answer but 2 you have not been paying attention.

What makes sense to you?

Excellent, and thank you Keypurr for reposting:

Paul needs to come back and post more:

I am going to re-post this in my own thread as well:

1Co 15:14 If Christ hasn't come back to life, our message has no meaning and your faith also has no meaning.
1Co 15:15 In addition, we are obviously witnesses who lied about God because we testified that he (God) brought Christ back to life. But if it's true that the dead don't come back to life, then God didn't bring Christ back to life.
 

Apple7

New member
Thanks for passing the buck, pops...




Pauls Rebuttal

Footnote on Jn. 10:17-18: "Power to take it up again" – contrasts the role of the Father as the efficient cause of the resurrection in Acts 2:24, 4:10 etc. Romans 1:4, 4:24.

Now let us see what this verse really means.

First the word here translated as "power" is exousia. It occurs just over 100 times, in a majority of these occurrences the RV translates it as "authority," and 10 times as "right." It is not the common word for "power" which is dunamis which means - power, strength, ability.

Both AV and RV translate exousia as "right," for instance, in Rev. 22:14:

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right (exousia) to the tree of life."

This obviously does not mean that obeying God’s commands gives a man the phisical power to raise himself from the dead to immortality, but that he is thereby granted a right to it.



This is not even the same word, brother!:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Can we say Greek ignorance!

John 10.18 utilizes ἐξουσίαν while Rev 22.14 utilizes ἐξουσία

Hardly the same word…hardly the same meaning…and not even transliterated correctly.

Your googled straw-man argument was set-up by Greek-ignorant uni’s who are more concerned about how much they paid in taxes last year, than in actually exegesis.

Owned.
 

Gill White

New member
Thanks for passing the buck, pops...

This is not even the same word, brother!:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Can we say Greek ignorance!

John 10.18 utilizes ἐξουσίαν while Rev 22.14 utilizes ἐξουσία

Hardly the same word…hardly the same meaning…and not even transliterated correctly.

What greek number for each, do you have, (John 10.18 & Rev 22.14) maybe that will help:

I have looked this up in the KJV+ against the greek number, and this is what it comes up:

They are both the same number, and both say ἐξουσία

Rev 22:14
(14) BlessedG3107 are they that doG4160 hisG848 commandments,G1785 thatG2443 theyG846 may haveG2071 rightG1849 toG1909 theG3588 treeG3586 of life,G2222 andG2532 may enter inG1525 through theG3588 gatesG4440 intoG1519 theG3588 city.G4172

G1849
ἐξουσία
exousia
ex-oo-see'-ah
From G1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, that is, (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence: - authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.


Joh 10:18
(18) No manG3762 takethG142 itG846 fromG575 me,G1700 butG235 IG1473 lay it downG5087 G846 ofG575 myself.G1683 I haveG2192 powerG1849 to lay it down,G5087 G846 andG2532 I haveG2192 powerG1849 to takeG2983 itG846 again.G3825 ThisG5026 commandmentG1785 have I receivedG2983 ofG3844 myG3450 Father.G3962

G1849
ἐξουσία
exousia
ex-oo-see'-ah
From G1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, that is, (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence: - authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.
 

Apple7

New member
What greek number for each, do you have, (John 10.18 & Rev 22.14) maybe that will help:

I have looked this up in the KJV+ against the greek number, and this is what it comes up:

They are both the same number, and both say ἐξουσία

Rev 22:14
(14) BlessedG3107 are they that doG4160 hisG848 commandments,G1785 thatG2443 theyG846 may haveG2071 rightG1849 toG1909 theG3588 treeG3586 of life,G2222 andG2532 may enter inG1525 through theG3588 gatesG4440 intoG1519 theG3588 city.G4172

G1849
ἐξουσία
exousia
ex-oo-see'-ah
From G1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, that is, (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence: - authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.


Joh 10:18
(18) No manG3762 takethG142 itG846 fromG575 me,G1700 butG235 IG1473 lay it downG5087 G846 ofG575 myself.G1683 I haveG2192 powerG1849 to lay it down,G5087 G846 andG2532 I haveG2192 powerG1849 to takeG2983 itG846 again.G3825 ThisG5026 commandmentG1785 have I receivedG2983 ofG3844 myG3450 Father.G3962

G1849
ἐξουσία
exousia
ex-oo-see'-ah
From G1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, that is, (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence: - authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.


This is where E-sword will get you into trouble, as it assigns only one Strong's # to the base-word...it does not, however, show you the inflected words derived from the base word.

You need to look to the lexicons for the inflections and actual meanings...
 

keypurr

Well-known member
Son of God in Scripture is a claim to sharing equality and the same nature as God. The Pharisees understood His claims and went to stone Him for blasphemy. You are a modern Gentile, so miss the biblical significance of claiming to be LORD (YHWH/God), I AM, Alpha and Omega, Judge, Savior, etc. Other verses show that He is God. His position at the right hand of God shows equality, not creature subordination. The cumulative evidence is needed as well as a first vs 21st century mindset.

The Pharisees did not understand God at all GR. Jesus never said he was equal to his father, he said his father is greater than all.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
Excellent, and thank you Keypurr for reposting:

Paul needs to come back and post more:

I am going to re-post this in my own thread as well:

1Co 15:14 If Christ hasn't come back to life, our message has no meaning and your faith also has no meaning.
1Co 15:15 In addition, we are obviously witnesses who lied about God because we testified that he (God) brought Christ back to life. But if it's true that the dead don't come back to life, then God didn't bring Christ back to life.

Gill it is always a pleasure to read your post. I a glad to share what has been given to me. Paul has a gift, he likes to share, but he does get e cited sometimes. Have you ever wondered about the origin of Jesus?
 

Pierac

New member
Scripture gives us several helpful clues as to The God who occupies the Throne in Rev 4.

The description given to the Throne and the one sitting upon it is the same as previously given in Ezekiel (Eze. 1.26-28) and likewise is applied to Jesus in Revelation.

Ezekiel describes the one sitting upon the Throne as looking like a man and being called the Glory of Yahweh.

Daniel further elaborates on the Ancient of Days who occupies the Throne (Dan 7.9) and likewise is applied to Jesus in Revelation.


We are already told in Rev 3.21 that Jesus occupies the Father’s singular Throne, as thus…

The one overcoming, I will give to him to sit with Me in My throne, as I also overcame and sat with My Father in His throne. (Rev 3.21)


ο νικων δωσω αυτω καθισαι μετ εμου εν τω θρονω μου ως καγω ενικησα και εκαθισα μετα του πατρος μου εν τω θρονω αυτου

Jesus has already ‘overcome’ (ενικησα) aorist, past-tense verb.

And (και) …

Jesus has already ‘sat down’ (εκαθισα) aorist, past-tense verb.


The Greek verbs utilized inform us that Jesus has already sat down with His Father upon the same singular Throne….this is exactly in keeping with scripture which has the Son in the identical image as the Father.

One Throne.

One God.
This is a doxology of deity worship directed towards Jesus.

What part of this did you miss?


Then why are you so clueless? Let's use one of your very own verses quoted above!


Rev 3:20 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. Rev 3:21 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.


So according to you, Every Christian who sits on the throne with Jesus is now GOD just because Jesus sat down with His God and Father on His throne? Do you even read the scripture you post? I will sit on the throne with Jesus and MY Father, as per Rev 3:21... but that does not make me GOD! :doh: :rolleyes:

How did Jesus speak the Universe into existence?

Jesus did not speak the Universe into existence and tells you so Himself! :rolleyes:

Mar 13:19 For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God (my Father) created until now, and never will be.

Pay attention...

Gen 1:1 In the beginning (Jesus') God created the heavens and the earth

What God? The God of Jesus!

Joh 20:17 Jesus *said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"

The God who created the heavens and the earth and raised His servant from the dead!

Act 3:26 "For you first, God raised up His Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways."

Keep posting, You allow me to show the errors of your ways way more than if I just posted this on my own.... You complete me! :chuckle:


:poly::sherlock:
Paul
 

Apple7

New member

Then why are you so clueless? Let's use one of your very own verses quoted above!


Rev 3:20 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. Rev 3:21 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.


So according to you, Every Christian who sits on the throne with Jesus is now GOD just because Jesus sat down with His God and Father on His throne? Do you even read the scripture you post? I will sit on the throne with Jesus and MY Father, as per Rev 3:21... but that does not make me GOD! :doh: :rolleyes:



Jesus’ Elect…

• The Book of Revelation has much to say regarding God’s Elect
• John hears the number of the Elect. These are the ones who have been sealed; number 144,000; and emanate out of every tribe of Israel (Rev 7.4)
• From this passage, we learn that:

• “Sphragizo” informs us that God’s Elect are permanently sealed for security away from Satan
• “Chilias” conveys to us a large rounded number representing God’s Elect
• “Huios” conveys the thought that the Elect are descendents, or the posterity of another individual
• The term “Israel” again conveys that the Elect are the posterity of his lineage – which, according to the Old Testament, has God’s Blessing of Salvation.


The Twelve Tribes of Israel

• Revelation informs us that the ones being sealed for security come from a long line of believers through the lineage of Israel. The complete rounded number that represents all of the Elect, all of the Saved, all of the Believers in Jesus Christ, are from the Twelve Tribes of Israel (Rev 7.5-8 )
• Following directly on the heels of the separate listing of the twelve, twelve thousand, and re-enforcing that the 144,000 sealed represents the rounded spiritual number of the redeemed, John states that he saw “a great multitude which no one could count” (Rev 7.9 – 10)
• As is the style in the Book of Revelation, the symbolic metaphors used within the text are explained as to what they represent, throughout the body of the scripture
• Thus, the 144,000 sealed represents not a literal number, but a much, much larger number
• These verses further elaborate on the fact that the Twelve Tribes of Israel represent “every nation, and tribes and peoples and tongues” signifying that it encompasses all of spiritual humanity that has faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior (soteria)
• The 144,000 therefore is symbolic of all the believers in the covenant that is to be fulfilled in Jesus Christ
• Revelation further demonstrates that the 144,000 are the ones coming out of the great tribulation; the ones that purified themselves in the sacrificial blood of Jesus Christ (Rev 7.14)
• There are two examples from Revelation in which we are told that Jesus is descended from one special tribe of Israel, The Tribe of Judah – in particular, King David (Rev 5.5; 22.16)


The Victorious

• Revelation uses the verb “nikao” to describe The Elect
• “nikao” is defined as, “to be victorious; to carry off the victory, come off victorious. Overcome, get the victory”
• Revelation declares that Jesus Christ, The Lamb, The Lion, was singularly victorious (nikao) (Rev 5.5)
• Reinforcing His position of deity, and His example set forth to His Elect, Jesus declares, in the first-person singular (nikao), that He was victorious first, and now resides in the Throne of God. (Rev 3.21)
• Because of this, Jesus also provides a place in His Throne for the one overcoming (victorious, “nikao”)
• The ones (plural) being victorious (nikao) over Satan, do so because of the shed blood of Jesus Christ (Rev 12.11)
• The one that overcomes, and is victorious, will inherit all things, states Jesus in the Book of Revelation, as He, Himself, is God Almighty (Rev 21.7)
• Observe that in this verse “Theos” is in the nominative case, indicating that Jesus is the subject of the verb “esomai” establishing Him as God
• Further, observe that Jesus establishes that His deity is directly interchangeable with the Father, making the victorious ones, the sons to Him


His Name will be on their Foreheads

• John declares that he sees the 144,000 sealed, residing with The Lamb (i.e. Jesus Christ), on Mount Zion (Rev 14.1)
• These are the ones that have Jesus’ singular name (onoma autos) and His Father’s singular name (onoma ho pater autos) written on their foreheads
• Thus, both the Father and the Son are demonstrated have their singular namesake written on the redeemed people, and being in direct possession of the people, via the usage of the genitive singular “autos”
• Although both God and The Lamb are identified separately in the Book of Revelation, they are treated as one entity, one God, via the prolific usage of singular personal pronouns and singular nouns such as found in these verses (Rev 22.1 – 4):

• One Throne
• His slaves
• Worship Him
• His face
• His name


• Just as the singular name of The Lamb and the singular name of God are written on the foreheads of the Elect, as stated in Revelation 14.1, we are told that this is “His name” ,as Jesus Christ and Theos are one God
• The 144,000 are in the direct presence of God and will see His face, and they will worship Him
• Observe that Revelation declares three separate times that Jesus’ name will be upon His believers, the 144,000 sealed. The First time that this is mentioned, Jesus declares, in the first person singular, that only He writes the name on His Elect. (Rev 3.12 – 13)
• Thus, three separate times Revelation declares that Jesus’ name will be upon His Elect, with each of the Elect having three names written upon them: Theos, Jesus, & The New Jerusalem
• Observe that the one speaking (lego) at the beginning of this section, to each of the seven assemblies (Rev Chapters 2 & 3), is applied to Jesus, and in each case, it ends with the proclamation that the Spirit is the one speaking – yet another indication of the deity interchangeability between the Spirit and Jesus

• These verses also clearly indicate:

• Father
• Son
• Spirit



Before the Throne of God

• Further exemplifying that the 144,000 are the faithful followers of Jesus Christ, and that these Elect rank above all of His creation, we are once again given their physical location in Heaven (Rev 14.3 – 4)
• Their location is shown to be before the elders; before the four living creatures; and before the singular Throne of God & The Lamb
• The 144,000 are therefore in the direct presence of God; in the direct presence of Jesus Christ, and, as demonstrated in Rev 3.21, are actually in/on the Throne of God
 

Pierac

New member
Jesus’ Elect…

• The Book of Revelation has much to say regarding God’s Elect
• John hears the number of the Elect. These are the ones who have been sealed; number 144,000; and emanate out of every tribe of Israel (Rev 7.4)
• From this passage, we learn that:

• “Sphragizo” informs us that God’s Elect are permanently sealed for security away from Satan
• “Chilias” conveys to us a large rounded number representing God’s Elect
• “Huios” conveys the thought that the Elect are descendents, or the posterity of another individual
• The term “Israel” again conveys that the Elect are the posterity of his lineage – which, according to the Old Testament, has God’s Blessing of Salvation.


The Twelve Tribes of Israel

• Revelation informs us that the ones being sealed for security come from a long line of believers through the lineage of Israel. The complete rounded number that represents all of the Elect, all of the Saved, all of the Believers in Jesus Christ, are from the Twelve Tribes of Israel (Rev 7.5-8 )
• Following directly on the heels of the separate listing of the twelve, twelve thousand, and re-enforcing that the 144,000 sealed represents the rounded spiritual number of the redeemed, John states that he saw “a great multitude which no one could count” (Rev 7.9 – 10)
• As is the style in the Book of Revelation, the symbolic metaphors used within the text are explained as to what they represent, throughout the body of the scripture
• Thus, the 144,000 sealed represents not a literal number, but a much, much larger number
• These verses further elaborate on the fact that the Twelve Tribes of Israel represent “every nation, and tribes and peoples and tongues” signifying that it encompasses all of spiritual humanity that has faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior (soteria)
• The 144,000 therefore is symbolic of all the believers in the covenant that is to be fulfilled in Jesus Christ
• Revelation further demonstrates that the 144,000 are the ones coming out of the great tribulation; the ones that purified themselves in the sacrificial blood of Jesus Christ (Rev 7.14)
• There are two examples from Revelation in which we are told that Jesus is descended from one special tribe of Israel, The Tribe of Judah – in particular, King David (Rev 5.5; 22.16)


The Victorious

• Revelation uses the verb “nikao” to describe The Elect
• “nikao” is defined as, “to be victorious; to carry off the victory, come off victorious. Overcome, get the victory”
• Revelation declares that Jesus Christ, The Lamb, The Lion, was singularly victorious (nikao) (Rev 5.5)
• Reinforcing His position of deity, and His example set forth to His Elect, Jesus declares, in the first-person singular (nikao), that He was victorious first, and now resides in the Throne of God. (Rev 3.21)
• Because of this, Jesus also provides a place in His Throne for the one overcoming (victorious, “nikao”)
• The ones (plural) being victorious (nikao) over Satan, do so because of the shed blood of Jesus Christ (Rev 12.11)
• The one that overcomes, and is victorious, will inherit all things, states Jesus in the Book of Revelation, as He, Himself, is God Almighty (Rev 21.7)
• Observe that in this verse “Theos” is in the nominative case, indicating that Jesus is the subject of the verb “esomai” establishing Him as God
• Further, observe that Jesus establishes that His deity is directly interchangeable with the Father, making the victorious ones, the sons to Him


His Name will be on their Foreheads

• John declares that he sees the 144,000 sealed, residing with The Lamb (i.e. Jesus Christ), on Mount Zion (Rev 14.1)
• These are the ones that have Jesus’ singular name (onoma autos) and His Father’s singular name (onoma ho pater autos) written on their foreheads
• Thus, both the Father and the Son are demonstrated have their singular namesake written on the redeemed people, and being in direct possession of the people, via the usage of the genitive singular “autos”
• Although both God and The Lamb are identified separately in the Book of Revelation, they are treated as one entity, one God, via the prolific usage of singular personal pronouns and singular nouns such as found in these verses (Rev 22.1 – 4):

• One Throne
• His slaves
• Worship Him
• His face
• His name


• Just as the singular name of The Lamb and the singular name of God are written on the foreheads of the Elect, as stated in Revelation 14.1, we are told that this is “His name” ,as Jesus Christ and Theos are one God
• The 144,000 are in the direct presence of God and will see His face, and they will worship Him
• Observe that Revelation declares three separate times that Jesus’ name will be upon His believers, the 144,000 sealed. The First time that this is mentioned, Jesus declares, in the first person singular, that only He writes the name on His Elect. (Rev 3.12 – 13)
• Thus, three separate times Revelation declares that Jesus’ name will be upon His Elect, with each of the Elect having three names written upon them: Theos, Jesus, & The New Jerusalem
• Observe that the one speaking (lego) at the beginning of this section, to each of the seven assemblies (Rev Chapters 2 & 3), is applied to Jesus, and in each case, it ends with the proclamation that the Spirit is the one speaking – yet another indication of the deity interchangeability between the Spirit and Jesus

• These verses also clearly indicate:

• Father
• Son
• Spirit



Before the Throne of God

• Further exemplifying that the 144,000 are the faithful followers of Jesus Christ, and that these Elect rank above all of His creation, we are once again given their physical location in Heaven (Rev 14.3 – 4)
• Their location is shown to be before the elders; before the four living creatures; and before the singular Throne of God & The Lamb
• The 144,000 are therefore in the direct presence of God; in the direct presence of Jesus Christ, and, as demonstrated in Rev 3.21, are actually in/on the Throne of God

Wow, it's amazing how many Christians can take a Book of scripture expressively written in signs and symbols and create a wholly different text when trying to explain it! :think:


Paul
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
The Pharisees did not understand God at all GR. Jesus never said he was equal to his father, he said his father is greater than all.

The Pharisees rejected His Messiahship and Deity. They were wrong to do so, but they did not misunderstand His claims to both.

Jn. 14:28 relates to the incarnation (position vs nature), while Jn. 5:18; Jn. 10:30-33; Jn. 19:7 are e.g. of them understanding His claim to equality with God and trying to kill Him for blasphemy. Claiming to be Messiah is not grounds for blasphemy.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
As I understand from bible, I see that Jesus was born with the ''same nature'' that the first Adam had, BEFORE he sinned.

Jesus' nature was perfect and pure and knew no sin.

Jesus listened to God:

Isa 42:1-6
(1) Here is my servant, whom I support. Here is my chosen one, with whom I am pleased. I have put my Spirit on him. He will bring justice to the nations.

The spirit upon Jesus was not created

(2) He will not cry out or raise his voice. He will not make his voice heard in the streets.
(3) He will not break off a damaged cattail. He will not even put out a smoking wick. He will faithfully bring about justice.
(4) He will not be discouraged or crushed until he has set up justice on the earth. The coastlands will wait for his teachings.
(5) The LORD God created the heavens and stretched them out. He shaped the earth and all that comes from it. He gave life to the people who are on it and breath to those who walk on it. This is what the LORD God says:
(6) I, the LORD, have called you to do what is right. I will take hold of your hand. I will protect you. I will appoint you as my promise to the people, as my light to the nations.

Jesus is the chosen one from God: God called Jesus to do what is right, God took hold of Jesus' hand and protected Jesus, God appointed Jesus as His promise to the people. Jesus is God's light to the nations.

The first Adam lost that pure nature, through disobedience:
Through obedience, the second Adam's (Jesus) remained in that nature, God was with Jesus:

Heb 5:7-8
(7) During his life on earth, Jesus prayed to God, who could save him from death. He prayed and pleaded with loud crying and tears, and he was heard because of his devotion to God.
(8) Although Jesus was the Son of God, he learned to be obedient through his sufferings.

A person can learn about temptations without entering or giving into the temptation:

One can give in, to the temptation or one can walk away from the temptation:

I do believe that God was speaking and guiding Jesus all the time as recorded in Isa 42:6

Rom 5:19
(19) Clearly, through one person's disobedience humanity became sinful, and through one person's obedience humanity will receive God's approval.

Heb 10:9 Then Christ says, "I have come to do what you want." He did away with sacrifices in order to establish the obedience that God wants.

''in order to establish the obedience that God wants''

Thats truth friend.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
Thanks for passing the buck, pops...








This is not even the same word, brother!:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Can we say Greek ignorance!

John 10.18 utilizes ἐξουσίαν while Rev 22.14 utilizes ἐξουσία

Hardly the same word…hardly the same meaning…and not even transliterated correctly.

Your googled straw-man argument was set-up by Greek-ignorant uni’s who are more concerned about how much they paid in taxes last year, than in actually exegesis.

Owned.

I like being called "Pops", maybe I should change my name. But my question has yet to be answered. I ask that you study the subject of Image of God with me. We have different ideas, but the same love for God so just maybe we can work together on it. I was hoping that the older I got the easier the questions would be, but it does not work that way.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
The Pharisees rejected His Messiahship and Deity. They were wrong to do so, but they did not misunderstand His claims to both.

Jn. 14:28 relates to the incarnation (position vs nature), while Jn. 5:18; Jn. 10:30-33; Jn. 19:7 are e.g. of them understanding His claim to equality with God and trying to kill Him for blasphemy. Claiming to be Messiah is not grounds for blasphemy.

No friend, they did not understand that the son of God was not God. They, like you, feel that the messiah is God, that is not what scripture teaches. He says that he will be a man, a prophet, a teacher. He will magnify god's law into the hearts of Men. He is the mediator between God and Men. It does not say he will be God, it says God will be IN him. That is a big difference GR. Even though creation was done THROUGH HIM he has a GOD who did the creation.

Peace BROTHER.
 

OneGodInChrist

New member
No friend, they did not understand that the son of God was not God. They, like you, feel that the messiah is God, that is not what scripture teaches. He says that he will be a man, a prophet, a teacher. He will magnify god's law into the hearts of Men. He is the mediator between God and Men. It does not say he will be God, it says God will be IN him. That is a big difference GR. Even though creation was done THROUGH HIM he has a GOD who did the creation.

Peace BROTHER.

Although I don't believe in the doctrine of the trinity, I do believe that the Scriptures emphatically teach that Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh. John 1:1, 14; 1 Tim. 3:16, Rev. 1:8; etc, etc...
 

keypurr

Well-known member
Although I don't believe in the doctrine of the trinity, I do believe that the Scriptures emphatically teach that Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh. John 1:1, 14; 1 Tim. 3:16, Rev. 1:8; etc, etc...

Peace

I was wrong when I believed it too. God was IN Jesus. He came as a man to be the sacrifice for men. He had to die, God cannot die. If he was not just a man, he died for nothing. The Christ was foretold to be a man, a prophet, a teacher not a god. Christ, the anointed one of God, came in the flesh.
Peace
 
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