ECT Our triune God

1Mind1Spirit

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
Cross Reference said:
"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to *bondage."
Hebrews 2:14-15 (KJV)

*per Romans 8:20 by which Adam had sealed the whole human race to vanity also known as "self preservation" . . . fear of dying.
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If vanity was self preservation Adam would not have followed Eve into death.




Gethsemany was proof of the fear Jesus experienced having taken on the full likeness of man, the "seed of Abraham" for their deliverance.
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Jesus knew his Father would raise him, it was the suffering he feared.
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

New member
1Mind1Spirit said:
If vanity was self preservation Adam would not have followed Eve into death.
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Vanity is also an exercise in "self gratification". Do you think you can see an argument erupting within Adam? I could see one erupting in you. . . or me. . . . and it has, more than once and more than once have I lost the battle. Perhaps it can be seen why the great need for the new birth to be made effective in one and not taken for granted, if indeed we are born again.. It is "futile" thinking [see Rom 8:20 NASB] to consider anything without it for life giving life [strength], which Adam forfeited.

Jesus knew his Father would raise him, it was the suffering he feared.
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Agreed. And His faith for believing that is designed for any new born child of God with the same end in mind.
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Cross Reference

Cross Reference

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Lon said:
Hello CR, I think we are at the end of this discussion.
As to the Lord Jesus Christ being fully man, there is no contest. The heresy you are espousing is however against the creeds and councils, against scripture passages (against the Lord Jesus Christ being Yesterday, Today, and Forever the same).

We are about at the end of this road because the links and discussion will only become cyclic at this point. By way of wrap up here are a few posts with related reading and then we need to get back to the OP which is the orthodoxy of the Triune view and it's discussion.
As Ask Mr. Religion reminded us:
Along with his ensuing post here.

It is time to wrap up the discussion here.
I will thank you, CR, for helping flesh out the problems of your view as Trinitarians understand it, for all, that any can read and appreciate those differences, and then read the scriptures and links. Thanks and lets move on to other topics. -Lon
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Thank you. I would be more than willing to move on except to first clear up one thing before doing so you won't let go of, i.e., my, so-called by you, "heretical" perspective:

The heresy you are espousing is however against the creeds and councils, against scripture passages (against the Lord Jesus Christ being Yesterday, Today, and Forever the same).
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You claim heresy because it 'cuts across' the grain to what you have "espoused" to yourself, i.e., creeds and man's doctrine OVER and against sound scripture, which you have never argued to an "objective" understanding but rather when confronted with a seeming empass deliberately obfuscate, usually to what you believe the creeds have concluded. One other way you, as with other self proclaimed scholars, manipulate the Greek to make it fit your "scholarly" bent.

Permit me this last request that you give your reasoning as to when Rom. 8:20 KJV was initially subjected to Adam? [I assume you accept Adam is the creature mentioned]
 
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PneumaPsucheSoma said:
Children have this qualitative functionality. It is adults who outgrow such sincere and simple functionality, tainted by their own hearts and minds.
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Yeah, "functionality" [blather] when it is by all that is understandable "innocence", irrespective of age; neither righteous nor unrighteous. Blameless as in without knowledge; Gullable by a trust not to be violated per Lu. 17:2 KJV.
 
Lon

Lon

Well-known member
Cross Reference said:
Permit me this last request that you give your reasoning as to when Rom. 8:20 KJV was initially subjected to Adam? [I assume you accept Adam is the creature mentioned]
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No problem discussing it, but rather I was trying to get this thread back on the main topic from here.

I thus, moved our discussion here and hope such is agreeable with you as well (you'll likely have a few proponents there to boot).
Cross Reference said:
For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the 'man' Christ Jesus
1Tim.2:5 KJV.
Does that verse ring true with anyone?
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A good question to ask here as well.

-Lon
 
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fzappa13

Well-known member
Cross Reference said:
For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the 'man' Christ Jesus
1Tim.2:5 KJV.
Does that verse ring true with anyone?
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The whole of the Bible rings true with me ... that verse included. That said, this thread is for those who see that verse as meaning something other than what is plainly says and if you have a problem with that then any such response likely belongs in another thread.
 
Lon

Lon

Well-known member
fzappa13 said:
The whole of the Bible rings true with me ... that verse included. That said, this thread is...those who see that verse as meaning something other than what is plainly says...
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I have no problem with what it clearly says :idunno:
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

I'll take the time here for the purpose of the thread:
1Ti 1:16-17 But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life: To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

If this wasn't clear enough, but I think it was, Paul says this 2 chapters later:
1Ti 3:16 Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

In Chapter 4 God is equated to Savior:
1Ti 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

Chapter 6 gives a strong warning to avoid debate that causes strife and doesn't produce godliness and reminds all to adhere to doctrine and the doctrine given here in the epistle as well. I think it is clear and irrevocable: The Lord Jesus Christ is both God very God and man 100%.
fzappa13 said:
and if you have a problem with that then any such response likely belongs in another thread.
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True and thank you.
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

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fzappa13 said:
The whole of the Bible rings true with me ... that verse included. That said, this thread is for those who see that verse as meaning something other than what is plainly says and if you have a problem with that then any such response likely belongs in another thread.
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How so?
 
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Lon said:
I have no problem with what it clearly says :idunno:
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

I'll take the time here for the purpose of the thread:
1Ti 1:16-17 But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life: To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
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Jesus Christ the man, who by obedience, fullfilled the Isaiah prophecy to become in "Glorified human flesh" the ". . . Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" because, "God . . hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Isaiah 9:6 KJV; Philippians 2:9 KJV)

If this wasn't clear enough, but I think it was, Paul says this 2 chapters later:
1Ti 3:16 Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.
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Apparently though, it is no longer a mystery to you unless it is as you see it because all else is heresy which proving you wrong creates the strife.

God was manifested in unglorified flesh revealed by the life of Jesus, having been conceived from above for such the purpose of revealing God that is, until such time that His glorification could be accomplished: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isaiah 53:4-5 (KJV)

In Chapter 4 God is equated to Savior:
1Ti 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
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Written well after the accomplishment of the man Jesus, full of the Holy Ghost per Luke 4:1-14 KJV.

Chapter 6 gives a strong warning to avoid debate that causes strife and doesn't produce godliness and reminds all to adhere to doctrine and the doctrine given here in the epistle as well. I think it is clear and irrevocable: The Lord Jesus Christ is both God very God and man 100%.
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I fully agree. He is now.

What you wilfully fail to understand is that Jesus Christ was tested in His human flesh without the manifest presence of God indwelling Him, flesh God never had; God needed to 'own' in order to sum up everything of Himself in His human creation that Jesus would be the "Captain of". In this was Jesus was NOT glorified when proven nor could He have been for the conquering of Satan.

OMT re emptying of Himself:

Jesus "emptied Himself" to complete servanthood of everything of His human flesh that hindered in any way His allegiance to His Master, everything pertaining to the needs demanded by "self": vanity, manly desires, even hunger and thirst, He overcame and He did so alone. He abandoned His Life to God who hung it on a cross.

I don't believe any of that is arguable if one truly understands the scriptures about Him and God.
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fzappa13

Well-known member
Cross Reference said:
How so?
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The Bible has much to say on this subject but most of us see it through the lens of our chosen preference. The lens of preference for this thread is the notion of the triune nature of "God". One should respect that as a matter of courtesy though not all are so inclined. Is the notion up for debate? Sure. But, that is not the purpose of this thread if I understand the O.P. aright.
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

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fzappa13 said:
The Bible has much to say on this subject but most of us see it through the lens of our chosen preference. The lens of preference for this thread is the notion of the triune nature of "God". One should respect that as a matter of courtesy though not all are so inclined. Is the notion up for debate? Sure. But, that is not the purpose of this thread if I understand the O.P. aright.
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I believe then that the nature of this debate is to get already triune believers to nit-pic about which commentary they embrace for their pet understanding.. . . . much as I am doing. . . :)
 
Lon

Lon

Well-known member
Cross Reference said:
Lon, please consider viewing this series by a staunchly Calvin Presbyterian Professor I personally know. For many years he has been but one of a few who have influenced me by the Holy Spirit.

Bob Mumford

In Him, CR
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Though one might have held to TULIP, for instance, it did not make them Calvinist at the time and in fact, all of them were Pentecostal and Charismatic rather.

For the most part, the Charasmatic church's embrace of anything Calvinism is different than the Reformed Calvinist camp (see here for a conservative critic).
 
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