ECT Our triune God

Lon

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AMR explains John 1:1

AMR explains John 1:1

This thread has seen this verse addressed on a number of occasions and I'm still happy to see someone else explain it as clearly as it is given here. Thanks AMR
The case that the subject is in is the nominative case.

A verb that equates the subject with something else, e.g., is, requires another noun in the nominative case, that is the predicate nominative.

"AMR is a man." "AMR" is the subject, "man" is the predicate nominative.

When using English, the subject and predicate nominative are found by their word order, the subject coming first.

However, when using Greek, word order is not as strict, in fact, in the Greek word order is used for emphasis moreso that some grammatical function. Accordingly, distinguishing the subject from the predicate nominative uses other means. For example, in the Greek having two nouns, if one of them has the definite article, that noun is the subject.

In the Greek having a word cast at the front of a clause is done for emphasis. A predicate nominative in front of a verb is an emphatic indication, as in John 1:1, wherein the English is usually rendered and the Word was God. If we look at the Greek, the word order is actually reversed, reading:

καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος
and God was the Word.

Note the definite article, so we know from the above that the Word is the subject and translate the Greek per that, and the Word was God.

Note also that
θεός has no article and its placement. This placement points us to the quality and essence at play, that quality and essence could be rendered: What God was, the Word was. The absence of an article for θεός prevents us from identifying the Person of the Word (Our Lord Jesus Christ) with the Person of God the Father. This emphatic word order teaches Jesus Christ having all the attributes of divinity that God the Father has. Absence of the definite article teaches us that Our Lord is not God the Father.

Martin Luther observed how the lack of an article for theos and word order prevents Sabellianism and Arianism:

Spoiler
In Luther's Sermon for the Principal Christmas Service: Christ's Titles of Honor; His Coming: His Incarnation; and the Revelation of His Glory (taken from John 1:1-14)...

On Arianism
The Arian heretics intended to draw a mist over this clear passage and to bore a hole into heaven, since they could not surmount it, and said that this Word of God was indeed God, not by nature, however, but by creation. They said that all things were created by it, but it had also been created previously, and after that all things were created by it. This they said from their own imagination without any authority from the Scriptures, because they left the simple words of the Scriptures and followed their own fancies.

Therefore I have said that he who desires to proceed safely on firm ground, must have no regard for the many subtle and hair-splitting words and fancies, but must cling to the simple, powerful, and explicit words of Scripture, and he will be secure. We shall also see how St. John anticipated these same heretics and refuted them in their subterfuges and fabrications.

Therefore we have here in the Books of Moses the real gold mine, from which everything that is written in the New Testament concerning the divinity of Christ has been taken. Here you may see from what source the gospel of St. John is taken, and upon what it is founded; and therefore it is easy to understand.

This is the source of the passage in Ps. 33, 6: "By the Word of Jehovah the heavens were made." Solomon in beautiful words describes the wisdom of God, Prov. 3, 22, saying that this wisdom bad been in God before all things; and he takes his thoughts from this chapter of Moses. So almost all the prophets have worked in this mine and have dug their treasures from it.

But there are other passages by this same Moses concerning the Holy Ghost, as for example in Gen. 1,2: "And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." Thus the Spirit of God must also be something different from him who breathes him into existence, sends him forth, and yet he must be before all creatures. Again, Moses says in Gen. 1, 28-31: "God blessed the creatures, beheld them, and was pleased with them." This benediction and favorable contemplation of the creatures point to the Holy Ghost, since the Scriptures attribute to him life and mercy. But these passages are not so well developed as those which refer to the Son; consequently they are not so prominent. The ore is still halfway in the mines, so that these passages can easily be believed, if reason is so far in subjection as to believe that there are two persons. If anyone will take the time and trouble to compare the passages of the New Testament referring to the Holy Ghost with this text of Moses, he will find much light, as well as pleasure.

Now we must open wide our hearts and understanding, so as to look upon these words not as the insignificant, perishable words of man, but think of them as being as great as he is who speaks them. It is a Word which he speaks of himself, which remains in him, and is never separated from him. Therefore according to the thought of the Apostle, we must consider how God speaks with himself and to himself, and how the Word proceeds from within himself. However, this Word is not an empty sound, but brings with it the whole essence of the divine nature. Reference has been made in the Epistle to the brightness of his glory and the image of his person, which constitute the divine nature, so that it accompanies the image in its entirety and thus becomes the very image itself. In the same manner God of himself also utters his Word, so that the whole Godhead accompanies the Word and in its nature remains in, and essentially is, the Word.

Behold, here we see whence the Apostle has taken his language, when he calls Christ an image of the divine essence, and the brightness of divine glory. He takes it from this text of Moses, when he says that God spoke the Word of himself; this can be nothing else than an image that represents him, since every word is a sign which means something. But here the thing signified is by its very nature in the sign or in the Word, which is not in any other sign. Therefore he very properly calls it a real image or sign of his nature.

The word of man may also in this connection be used in a measure as an illustration; for by it the human heart is known. Thus we commonly say: I understand his heart or intentions, when we have only heard his words; as out of the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks, and from the word the heart is known, as though it were in the word. In consequence of this experience the heathen had a saying: Qualis quisque est talia loquitur. (As a man speaks, so is he). Again: Oratio est character animi (Speech is an image of the heart). When the heart is pure it utters pure words, when it is impure it utters impure words. With this also corresponds the gospel of Matthew, 12, 34, where Christ says: "Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." And again, "How can ye, being evil, speak good things?" Also John the Baptist says, John 3, 31: "He that is of the earth is of the earth, and of the earth he speaketh." The Germans also have a proverb: "Of what the heart is full, overfloweth out of the mouth." The bird is known by its song, for it sings according to its nature. Therefore all the world knows that nothing represents the condition of the heart so perfectly and so positively as the words of the mouth, just as though the heart were in the word.

Thus it is also with God. His word is so much like himself, that the Godhead is wholly in it, and be who has the word has the whole Godhead. But this comparison has its limits. For the human word does not carry with it the essence or the nature of the heart, but simply its meaning, or is a sign of the heart, just as a woodcut or a bronze tablet does not carry with it the human being, but simply represents it. But here in God, the Word does not only carry with it the sign and picture, but the whole being, and is as full of God as he whose word or picture it is. If the human word were pure heart, or the intention of the heart, the comparison would be perfect. But this cannot be; consequently the Word of God is above every word, and without comparison among all creatures.

There have indeed been sharp discussions about the inner word in the heart of man, which remains within, since man has been created in the image of God. But it is all so deep and mysterious, and will ever remain so, that it is not possible to understand it. Therefore we shall pass on, and we come, now to our Gospel, which is in itself clear and manifest.

"In the beginning was the Word."

What beginning does the Evangelist mean except the one of which Moses says: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth?" That was the beginning and origin of creation. Other than this there was no beginning, for God had no beginning, but is eternal. It follows, therefore, that the Word is also eternal, because it did not have its origin in the beginning, but it was already in the beginning, John says. It did not begin, but when other things began it was already in existence; and its existence did not begin when all things began, but it was then already present.

How prudently the Evangelist speaks; for he does not say: "In the beginning the Word was made," but it was there,"and was not made". The origin of its existence is different from the beginning of creation. Furthermore he says: "In the beginning." Had he been made before the world, as the Arians maintain, he would not have been in the beginning, but he would have himself been the beginning. But John firmly and clearly maintains: "In the beginning was the Word," and he was not the beginning. Whence has St. John these words? From Moses, Gen. 1, 3 "God said, Let there be light." From this text evidently come the words: "In the beginning was the Word." For if God spoke, there had to be a Word. And if he spoke it in the beginning, when the creation began, it was already in the beginning, and did not begin with the creation.

But why does he not say: Before the beginning was the Word? This would have made the matter clearer, as it would seem; thus St. Paul often says: Before the creation of the world, etc. The answer is, because, to be in the beginning, and to be before, the beginning, are the same, and one is the consequence of the other. St. John, as an Evangelist, wished to agree with the writings of Moses, wished to open them up, and to disclose the source of his own words, which would not have been the case had he said: "Before" the beginning. Moses says nothing of that which was before the beginning, but describes the Word in the beginning, in order that he can the better describe the creation, which was made by the Word. For the same reason he also calls him a word, when he might as well have called him a light, life or something else, as is done later; for Moses speaks of a word. Now not to begin and to be in the beginning are the same as to be before the beginning.

But if the Word had been in the beginning and not before the beginning, it must have begun to be before the beginning, and so the beginning would have been before the beginning, which would be a contradiction, and would be the same as though the beginning were not the beginning. Therefore it is put in a masterly way: In the beginning was the Word, so as to show that it has not begun, and consequently must necessarily have been eternal, before the beginning.

"And the Word was with God."

Where else should it have been? There never was anything outside of God. Moses says the same thing when he writes: "God said, Let there be light." Whenever God speaks the word must be with him. But here he clearly distinguishes the persons, so that the Word is a different person than God with whom it was. This passage of John does not allow the interpretation that God had been alone, because it says that something had been with God, namely, the Word. If he had been alone, why would he need to say: The Word was with God? To have something with him, is not to be alone or by himself. It should not be forgotten that the Evangelist strongly emphasizes the little word "with." For he repeats it, and clearly expresses the difference in persons to gainsay natural reason and future heretics. For while natural reason can understand that there is but one God, and many passages of Scripture substantiate it, and this is also true, yet the Scriptures also strongly oppose the idea that this same God is only one person.

On Seballianism/Modalism


Thus arose the heresy of Sabellius, who said: The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are only one person. And again Arius, although he admitted that the Word was with God, would not admit that he was true God. The former confesses and teaches too great a simplicity of God; the latter too great a multiplicity. The former mingles the persons; the latter separates the natures. But the true Christian faith takes the mean, teaches and confesses separate persons and an undivided nature. The Father is a different person from the Son, but he is not another God. Natural reason can not comprehend this; it must be apprehended by faith alone. Natural reason produces error and heresy; faith teaches and maintains the truth; for it clings to the Scriptures, which do not deceive nor lie.


"And God was the Word."

Since there is but one God, it must be true that God himself is the Word, which was in the beginning before all creation. Some change the order of the words and read: And the Word was God, in order to explain that this Word not only is with God and is a different person, but that it is also in its essence the one true God with the Father. But we shall leave the words in the order in which they now stand: And God was the Word; and this is also what it means; there is no other God than the one only God, and this same God must also essentially be the Word, of which the Evangelist speaks; so there is nothing in the divine nature which is not in the Word. It is clearly stated that this Word is truly God, so that it is not only true that the Word is God, but also that God is the Word.

On how John refutes both in a single verse:

Decidedly as this passage opposes Arius, who teaches that the Word is not God, so strongly it appears to favor Sabellius; for it speaks as though it mingled the persons, and thereby revokes or explains away the former passage, which separates the persons and says: The Word was with God.

But the Evangelist intentionally arranged his words so as to refute all heretics. Here therefore he overthrows Arius and attributes to the Word the true essential of the Godhead by saying: And God was the Word; as though he would say: I do not simply say, the Word is God, which might be understood as though the Godhead was only asserted of him, and were not essentially his, as you, Arius, claim; but I say: And God was the Word, which can be understood in no other way than that this same being which every one calls God and regards as such, is the Word.

Again, that Sabellius and reason may not think that I side with them, and mingle the persons, and revoke what I have said on this point, I repeat it and say again:

"The same was in the beginning with God."

The Word was with God, with God, and yet God was the Word. Thus the Evangelist contends that both assertions are true: God is the Word, and the Word is with God; one nature of divine essence, and yet not one person only. Each person is God complete and entire, in the beginning and eternally. These are the passages upon which our faith is founded and to which we must hold fast. For it is entirely above reason that there should be three persons and each one perfect and true God, and yet not three Gods but one God.


Thus, as Martin Luther observed, Sabellianism cannot prevail given the lack of an article, and Arianism falls given the word order. Consider how John 1:1 would have to be rendered for these cases:


καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν ὁ θεός
and the Word was the God
(the Word was the Father: Sabellianism)

καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν θεός
and the Word was a god
(Arianism)

But we have the proper rendering:

καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος
“and the Word was God”

Our Lord Jesus Christ is God possessing all the attributes of that are possessed by God the Father, yet Our Lord is not the first Person of the Trinity. Amen!

AMR
 

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Though one might have held to TULIP, for instance, it did not make them Calvinist at the time and in fact, all of them were Pentecostal and Charismatic rather.

For the most part, the Charasmatic church's embrace of anything Calvinism is different than the Reformed Calvinist camp (see here for a conservative critic).

I have read Johnny Mac. For me Johhny Mac is a cultist. His theology is screwed up. However, whatever. I still ask you to view them. Apply the same critique to Mumford as you would MacAuthor, of course in an objective way if possible.
 
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"I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, if anyone steadfastly believes in Me, he will himself be able to do the things that I do; and he will do even greater things than these, because I go to the Father."
John 14:12 (AMP)

Did Jesus have to be God to do the things He did? Does doing what He did make any new born of Him; the same Spirit that conceived Him, God? What was required of Him and is now required of any new born, baptized, Spirit filled child of God to perform as Jesus performed From His life? Will that make them God if they perfrom it? Seems to me you and your "Calvin Camp" would have every new born child of God renounce such a possibilty as heresy because there is no longer any evidence of the Holy spirit in lives today and therefore He is no longer needed because "we have the written word as the being all the evidence we need". Become instead, a scholar in Greek as the means to understanding and arriving at piety. Build the Church on the Greek lexicon of understanding God even though they themselves were always looking for theirs.

". . . . Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: . . . . . Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth". 2 Timothy 3:5,7 (KJV)

PS: PPS, as with others, are a frightening examples of the result by degrees, of such learning.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
This thread has seen this verse addressed on a number of occasions and I'm still happy to see someone else explain it as clearly as it is given here. Thanks AMR

As bulletproof as this is (and it IS), it will never stop those who depend upon their own tainted reasoning from false self-conceptualization to the contrary. Those who want to deny the eternal uncreated contiguous uninterrupted divinity of our Lord will do so at all costs to themselves and anyone they can influence.
 
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Lazy afternoon

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I have read Johnny Mac. For me Johhny Mac is a cultist. His theology is screwed up. However, whatever. I still ask you to view them. Apply the same critique to Mumford as you would MacAuthor, of course in an objective way if possible.

Ask Bob Mumford if he still teaches the shepherd sheep doctrine?

You know, if you aren't mine then get out, you must belong to someone else.

LA
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
"I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, if anyone steadfastly believes in Me, he will himself be able to do the things that I do; and he will do even greater things than these, because I go to the Father."
John 14:12 (AMP)

Did Jesus have to be God to do the things He did? Does doing what He did make any new born of Him; the same Spirit that conceived Him, God? What was required of Him and is now required of any new born, baptized, Spirit filled child of God to perform as Jesus performed From His life? Will that make them God if they perfrom it? Seems to me you and your "Calvin Camp" would have every new born child of God renounce such a possibilty as heresy because there is no longer any evidence of the Holy spirit in lives today and therefore He is no longer needed because "we have the written word as the being all the evidence we need". Become instead, a scholar in Greek as the means to understanding and arriving at piety. Build the Church on the Greek lexicon of understanding God even though they themselves were always looking for theirs.

". . . . Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: . . . . . Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth". 2 Timothy 3:5,7 (KJV)

PS: PPS, as with others, are a frightening examples of the result by degrees, of such learning.

You're a heretic of the highest order, demanding that there is no other way of salvation than for man to save himself. You're a Hegelian Kenoticist to the point of outright denying the divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ. You're a Barthian Universal Atonement proponent. And you're a Hyper-Pelagian who exalts the alleged sovereignty of man over the sovereignty of God.

You deny the authentic historical Christian faith in any form, and contend for heresies based on Modernism and other contemporary anti-Christian foundations.

AND... You want to stone anyone who has laid down their life to have the truth so you can keep all your doctrinal fallacies because of cognitive dissonance.

You don't get to change orthodoxy or orthopraxy. You don't get to cast off two millennia of Apostolic doctrine and Patristic piety. You don't get to determine ad hoc what is and isn't truth and life.

And even if you want to stand against all of that, and you DO want to do so... THIS THREAD IS NOT THE PLACE FOR IT.

You can't stand to have any limitations placed upon you for the same reason all your doctrine is egocentric and autonomous. You don't present any new considerations. You can only represent false views that have been anathematized for 1500 years or more.

The core of the Trinity doctrine is the divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ, who is eternal and uncreated contiguous and uninterrupted as divinity. No Arian, Sabellian, Unitarian, or Adoptionist should be assailing that in this thread.

Go post elsewhere. It's not by MY authority that I say this, but by the intent of the authority on this board and the intent of the OP of this thread.

And 2Timothy 3:5-7 is YOU, but you can't know that.
 
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Lazy afternoon

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You're a heretic of the highest order, demanding that there is no other way of salvation than for man to save himself. You're a Hegelian Kenoticist to the point of outright denying the divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ. You're a Barthian Universal Atonement proponent. And you're a Hyper-Pelagian who exalts the alleged sovereignty of man over the sovereignty of God.

You deny the authentic historical Christian faith in any form, and contend for heresies based on Modernism and other contemporary anti-Christian foundations.

AND... You want to stone anyone who has laid down their life to have the truth so you can keep all your doctrinal fallacies because of cognitive dissonance.

You don't get to change orthodoxy or orthodopraxy. You don't get to cast off two millennia of Apostolic doctrine and Patristic piety. You don't get to determine ad hoc what is and isn't truth and life.

And even if you want to stand against all of that, and you DO want to do so... THIS THREAD IS NOT THE PLACE FOR IT.

You can't stand to have any limitations placed upon you for the same reason all your doctrine is egocentric and autocentric. You don't present any new considerations. You can only represent false views that have been anathematized for 1500 years or more.

The core of the Trinity doctrine is the divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ, who is eternal and uncreated contiguous and uninterrupted as divinity. No Arian, Sabellian, Unitarian, or Adoptionist should be assailing that in this thread.

Go post elsewhere. It's not by MY authority that I say this, but by the intent of the authority on this board and the intent of the OP of this thread.


You changed your mind and you will change it again,

whatever way the wind blows.

LA
 

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You're a heretic of the highest order, demanding that there is no other way of salvation than for man to save himself. You're a Hegelian Kenoticist to the point of outright denying the divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ. You're a Barthian Universal Atonement proponent. And you're a Hyper-Pelagian who exalts the alleged sovereignty of man over the sovereignty of God.

You deny the authentic historical Christian faith in any form, and contend for heresies based on Modernism and other contemporary anti-Christian foundations.

AND... You want to stone anyone who has laid down their life to have the truth so you can keep all your doctrinal fallacies because of cognitive dissonance.

You don't get to change orthodoxy or orthodopraxy. You don't get to cast off two millennia of Apostolic doctrine and Patristic piety. You don't get to determine ad hoc what is and isn't truth and life.

And even if you want to stand against all of that, and you DO want to do so... THIS THREAD IS NOT THE PLACE FOR IT.

You can't stand to have any limitations placed upon you for the same reason all your doctrine is egocentric and autonomous. You don't present any new considerations. You can only represent false views that have been anathematized for 1500 years or more.

The core of the Trinity doctrine is the divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ, who is eternal and uncreated contiguous and uninterrupted as divinity. No Arian, Sabellian, Unitarian, or Adoptionist should be assailing that in this thread.

Go post elsewhere. It's not by MY authority that I say this, but by the intent of the authority on this board and the intent of the OP of this thread.

And 2Timothy 3:5-7 is YOU, but you can't know that.

You have your creeds. I have my Bible. By my Bible do I have my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. By your Greek and creeds, you have nothing. So it is you who are on the wrong thread. . .er, forum.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
You changed your mind and you will change it again,

whatever way the wind blows.

LA

I haven't changed my mind at all. I've explained this previously, so you're just being your regular obtuse self.

My previous alignment was with any and all anti-Trinitarians because of my own challenges to the internal minutiae of the historical formulaic, and because a majority of modern alleged professing Trinitarians are funcitonal Tritheists and/or embrace some historical anathema or heresy for Theology Proper or Christology (just like CR and many others on this site).

But I realized that such contention placed me outside the orthodox perimeter with such wholesale challenges, and such external critiques are less credible than being within the boundaries and challenging details and misrepresentation from that perspective.

My previously withheld criticisms of Arianism, Unitarianism, and other anathemas are no longer withheld, and I have distanced myself from the positions of heretics like you and many others. The fact that you think I changed my mind is an example of why I changed my approach. I never supported the Unitarian heresy, but wrongly abstained from criticism of it in my focus against modern Tritheists masquerading as Trinitarians.

No need to keep embarassing yourself by insisting I changed my mind.
 
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PneumaPsucheSoma

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You have your creeds. I have my Bible. By my Bible do I have my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. By your Greek and creeds, you have nothing. So it is you who are on the wrong thread. . .er, forum.

I don't even affirm the Athanasian Creed, so you're barking up the wrong tree as always. You've tossed aside the inspired text of scripture, yet claim to have your Bible.

Fine. That's not the point. This thread is for Trinitarians and the trinue view to be discussed, not challenged. Your Christology is beyond that scope. It's that simple.

You don't have "your Bible". You have "you false conceptualizations of what you think your Bible says" because you despise the Greek text from which it was translated.

Take solace in being in the modern majority, because NOBODY wants to be corrected by what the Greek text actually says any longer. Everybody is their own authority by their own varied English concepts.
 

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I don't even affirm the Athanasian Creed, so you're barking up the wrong tree as always. You've tossed aside the inspired text of scripture, yet claim to have your Bible.

Fine. That's not the point. This thread is for Trinitarians and the trinue view to be discussed, not challenged. Your Christology is beyond that scope. It's that simple.

You don't have "your Bible". You have "you false conceptualizations of what you think your Bible says" because you despise the Greek text from which it was translated.

Take solace in being in the modern majority, because NOBODY wants to be corrected by what the Greek text actually says any longer. Everybody is their own authority by their own varied English concepts.


You can't possibly know what you believe. One in mind crippling confusion never can..
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

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You can't possibly know what you believe. One in mind crippling confusion never can..

Odd then that when I speak with the most accomplished and spirit-filled linguists and scholars at the highest levels and from various backgrounds, they all insist my understanding and presentation is the most cogent and cohesive they've ever encountered.

Odd then that my criticisms are the same historical criticisms of the faithful toward all who would destroy the Christian faith from within rather than from without.

That's what you are. A Trojan Horse within the gates. A brain-washed minion as a Third Wave Charismatic soldier waiting inside a false gift to spoil the city of God in deceit.
 

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Odd then that when I speak with the most accomplished and spirit-filled linguists and scholars at the highest levels and from various backgrounds, they all insist my understanding and presentation is the most cogent and cohesive they've ever encountered.

Odd then that my criticisms are the same historical criticisms of the faithful toward all who would destroy the Christian faith from within rather than from without.

That's what you are. A Trojan Horse within the gates. A brain-washed minion as a Third Wave Charismatic soldier waiting inside a false gift to spoil the city of God in deceit.

Self praise stinks. Did they tell you that as well. I'll bet not. Consider you have been deceived by them but, take heart, familiarity breeds contempt. However, know in advance, knowledge without understanding only makes a spiritual a.. out of the one so flattered. You've been had..
 
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PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Self praise stinks.

Then you should stop, since your self-salvation by works stinks to high heaven. My comments were not self-praise, but a comparison of sources for evaluation. Those who are highly respected and spirit-filled proponents of the Christian Faith you demean and destroy (with no respect for anything from more than your lifetime ago) don't have your false evaluation of me or my doctrinal positions.

Even the Charismatic Pastors won't throw me under the bus and dare say I'm a false teacher. So the point was that your autonomous evaluation by your own egocentric false doctrines is irrelevant. I rightly compared your heresy and accuations in the evaluation, and prefer the commendation from those who actually qualified to speak on the matter. You're not, since you are a schismatic heretic, and anathema from over 1500 years ago.

But twist it however you want, since it's all that can make you feel better about being in the anti-Christian Trojan horse to destroy the Faith.

Did they tell you that as well. I'll bet not. Consider you have been deceived by them but, take heart, familiarity breeds contempt.

Yeah, cuz you're the only authority; and those who have laid down their lives to know what scripture means as led by the Spirit have to be wrong compared to you as a Third Wave Charismatic fruitloop. Keep tellin' yourself that on the way to the pit. Depart from me, I never knew you... is comin' for you. Hide and watch.

However, know in advance, knowledge without understanding only makes a spiritual a.. out of the one so flattered. You've been had..

LOL. You're delusional in your accuastions now. There is no more self-praise on this forum than your every post.
 

Lazy afternoon

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I don't even affirm the Athanasian Creed, so you're barking up the wrong tree as always. You've tossed aside the inspired text of scripture, yet claim to have your Bible.

Fine. That's not the point. This thread is for Trinitarians and the trinue view to be discussed, not challenged. Your Christology is beyond that scope. It's that simple.

So on one hand you do not agree with the Trinitarian formula (same as myself) yet you defend it???

LA
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
So on one hand you do not agree with the Trinitarian formula (same as myself) yet you defend it???

LA

Nothing in my challenges for minutiae of the Trinity formulaic is "same as yourself", so you begin with a fallacious premise.

I defend it insofar as it is the best formulaic conceived to represent God extant; though there are considerations that have never been presented, and thus are not heretical and anathema to the faith (unlike Arianism, Unitarianism, Sabellianism, Adoptionism, et al).

And my concerns stem primarily around the English term "person/s" and the quantity of hypostases originally posited to replace unconsidered Multi-Phenomenality with Multi-Hypostaticism. There was ONE omission of the Patristics while defending the faith from heresy without and within the Body.

As a Unitarian/Adoptionist, you have been anathematized by every era of the Church, just as Arians and Sabellians and Adoptionists (along with many others), and proponents of false Christology have been.

My challenges have never been considered by ANY era of the Church, and they reconcile ALL heretical views of Theology Proper that have been postulated throughout history.

The biggest concern I have is that most modern professing Trinitarians are NOT authentic and historcial Trinitarians; and many embrace a functional Tritheism and/or some degree of heresy for Paterology, Christology, and/or Pneumatology.
 

Lon

Well-known member
What's an accuastion? . . . new Greek disposition? Disease maybe? Must be. Sounds foreign. Checked your arm pits lately?
I think this simply a typing error. Could we please stay on the triune topic. You could spend a bit of time discussing the fact that you are a Trinitarian post incarnation, for example. In that sense, the Kenosis problem is functioning as a unit-arian during incarnation, but not before or after as far as I'm following you and the movement. As I said, I had at one time held similarly but 100%/100% encapsulates your concerns. You could also bring up a few scriptures that discuss the Lord Jesus Christ as man who is able to empathize with all our infirmities, because I embrace those scriptures. IOW, try a different but supportive tack with the thread direction and such questions will serve both of us and others. Thanking you ahead of time for trying to help me/us stay on the topic of the thread. -Lon
 

Cross Reference

New member
I think this simply a typing error. Could we please stay on the triune topic. You could spend a bit of time discussing the fact that you are a Trinitarian post incarnation, for example. In that sense, the Kenosis problem is functioning as a unit-arian during incarnation, but not before or after as far as I'm following you and the movement. -Lon


I am a simple man. I have no idea what you are trying to say by the words you use. Maybe crank it down a notch or two out pity maybe.
 
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