"OSAS" people are not answering this question.

glorydaz

Well-known member
I would suggest baptism is very important and misunderstood. I hear people say a lot about it but most are either not in scripture or are in direct contradiction to scripture. The reason baptism is different before and after the cross is because of Jesus’ blood. Did Jesus send the apostles out to save anyone before his D,B &R? No, it was after he was made Lord and Christ that people could be saved by his blood.
Acts 2: 36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

The way we are put into Christ is by being water baptized in his name.
Matt. 28:19 Go therefore make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

An excellent example of this fact is found here:
Acts 19:1 And it happened, Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
If we are baptized by the Holy Spirit when we believe, why would Paul ask this question knowing they had believed?

When he finds they haven’t received the Holy Spirit, what does he question?
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?” So they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”

Once Paul finds the problem, he fixes it by baptizing them in the name of Jesus, which is in agreement with Matt. 28:19.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

You're still talking about the baptism that men can perform. Even unbelievers can be water baptized. There is ONE baptism whereby believers are baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ....when they believe the Gospel of Salvation.
 

popsthebuilder

New member
I met a pastor who preached OSAS. He said after a person accepts christ as saviour then his entry to heaven (eternal life) is secured. I asked what if he commits adultery and not repent and not get forgiveness from God. He still said that he would go but God would discipline him (he might even kill him). So i put forth a question in the following way and he could not answer it. He said go and read John's Gospel and you will understand.

notation : M --> me, P ---> the pastor

M: Is God holy?
P: Yes.
M: Does sin dwell in God's place?
P:No.
M: So if a commits adultery he will be disciplined (God might
kill him) but he will go to heaven.
P: yes.
M: Then what happens to the sin he committed ?
P: it will still be there.
M: Who will be accountable for the sin he committed. He did not ask
for forgiveness .
P: the sin will be there.
M: if that sin is still there how will he go to heaven.?
P: why are you focusing on sin leave it.
M: its because that's the thing that separates man from God.
P: you are not a man of God or else you would have simply believed instead of asking these many questions.

and he left.. can anyone answer this question.." who will be held accountable for the unforgiven sin even when the believer has not repented and asked for forgiveness".

ps. i believe that OSAS is false... dont say a true believer will never sin......
Someone isn't a Believer in Jesus or God if they don't get that through the death of Jesus we all have the potential to kill our sin in flesh. And through his redirection we can be born free of sin. Not literally be without sin at all times necessarily, but to use your conscience to denote sin in yourself and Faith in the Lord and his power through the resurrection to bring you to new Spiritual life without sins of the flesh.
 

Shasta

Well-known member
All of Scripture is inspired. The question for you then becomes do you follow the dietary laws that were given to the Jews? Do you keep the all the Sabbath laws? Do you bring a lamb to the priest to make an offering for your sins? Were those things written TO YOU?

The distinction between the Old and New Covenant is clear. Some laws (ceremonial) were fulfilled by Christ. Some (the Mosaic civil code) applied only to the Theocratic government of Israel. In other words the Bible explains itself. You have introduced a paradigm which is not self-evident in scripture which is arrived at indirectly by inferencing and eisegesis one which, moreover sets part of the New Testament against the other. If you MAD proponents really believed non-Pauline writings are inspired you would not be so dismissive of them when people bring them up to prove a point.

This OT/NT dichotomy appears to categorize Jesus teaching as belonging more to the OT. I do not think that is accurate at all. For one thing, while Jesus followed the Law this was not part of the gospel He taught to the disciples. The Bible says "the Law and prophets were until John." John introduced something new - Jesus and His proclamation of good news which had been prophesied about. This was was not the Law. It was good news which was a message both of truth and grace (John 1:17).

Now Jesus dealt with people who were still following the law but that was not part of His good news nor is it what He personally taught His disciples to practice. He said His message could not any more fit into the old forms than new wine can be put into old wine skins without bursting them. In His ministry we see a lot of Rabbinical wine skins rupturing.

For one, Jesus did not teach Mosaic Sabbath-keeping. He proclaimed Himself Lord of the Sabbath and said "Man was not made for the Sabbath, the Sabbath was made for man" and was liberal in allowing commonsense violations that would not have been acceptable in Moses day. If He was Lord of the Sabbath then He was on par with the Creator who established that day as holy in the first place (Mark 2:23-27).

Jesus is the first person in the NT to teach that violating the dietary law does not defile a person. "it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person” (Matthew 15:11)

With regard to the moral law Jesus summed it up as "Love God with all our heart...and our fellow humans as ourselves" (Matthew 22:40) This was held to be a Divine imperative also by James (James 2:8) and Paul (Galatians 5:13-14)

Jesus apparently participated in festivals. His habit was to go to Jerusalem on the Passover; but was not part of the corpus of the teachings He delivered to the disciples. When He ate His last Passover with the disciples He showed them how it symbolized the redemptive purpose of His death

for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. (Matthew 26:28)

In the Great Commission Jesus says this:

19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20)

They were not to teach all Moses had said. That was Old Covenant. Only those things that He specifically had taught them were to be included in the message they would pass on to the nations.

The word "nations" is "ethnos" The Hebrew equivalent is "goyim" which means all people not merely Jewish people. Had he wished to refer just to the Jews scattered throughout the nations He could have conveyed that by using the term "diaspora" as Peter did in 1 Peter 1:1.

Now when was this age of spreading Jesus gospel supposed to end - in 70 AD? Jesus answers this question:

…13"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

I am going to assume for the moment that "the end" coincides with the coming of the Messianic Kingdom and subduing the world. From Jesus' remark about "enduring to the end" I understand that there is going to be tribulation before "the end." Paul's remarks on the subject reveal that he and the Early Church interpreted Jesus' remarks that way too (Acts 14:22) It does not look like they expected to escape tribulation by being raptured out.

The end would not come until THIS gospel had been preached to all the nations in the world. Jesus apparently expected evangelization to continue until all nations had been reached. That certainly not happen during the lives of the disciples or for thousands of years afterward. Evangelization was to continue right up until He returned. Since He has not returned I am going to assume that His orders are still en force.

This scenario is, of course, inconsistent with the belief that Peter's mission was merely to evangelize the Jews with a special "Jewish Gospel" or with the belief that his mission subsequently failed and become obsolete in 30-50 years.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
The distinction between the Old and New Covenant is clear. Some laws (ceremonial) were fulfilled by Christ. Some (the Mosaic civil code) applied only to the Theocratic government of Israel. In other words the Bible explains itself. You have introduced a paradigm which is not self-evident in scripture which is arrived at indirectly by inferencing and eisegesis one which, moreover sets part of the New Testament against the other. If you MAD proponents really believed non-Pauline writings are inspired you would not be so dismissive of them when people bring them up to prove a point.

This OT/NT dichotomy appears to categorize Jesus teaching as belonging more to the OT. I do not think that is accurate at all. For one thing, while Jesus followed the Law this was not part of the gospel He taught to the disciples. The Bible says "the Law and prophets were until John." John introduced something new - Jesus and His proclamation of good news which had been prophesied about. This was was not the Law. It was good news which was a message both of truth and grace (John 1:17).

Now Jesus dealt with people who were still following the law but that was not part of His good news nor is it what He personally taught His disciples to practice. He said His message could not any more fit into the old forms than new wine can be put into old wine skins without bursting them. In His ministry we see a lot of Rabbinical wine skins rupturing.

For one, Jesus did not teach Mosaic Sabbath-keeping. He proclaimed Himself Lord of the Sabbath and said "Man was not made for the Sabbath, the Sabbath was made for man" and was liberal in allowing commonsense violations that would not have been acceptable in Moses day. If He was Lord of the Sabbath then He was on par with the Creator who established that day as holy in the first place (Mark 2:23-27).

Jesus is the first person in the NT to teach that violating the dietary law does not defile a person. "it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person” (Matthew 15:11)

With regard to the moral law Jesus summed it up as "Love God with all our heart...and our fellow humans as ourselves" (Matthew 22:40) This was held to be a Divine imperative also by James (James 2:8) and Paul (Galatians 5:13-14)

Jesus apparently participated in festivals. His habit was to go to Jerusalem on the Passover; but was not part of the corpus of the teachings He delivered to the disciples. When He ate His last Passover with the disciples He showed them how it symbolized the redemptive purpose of His death

for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. (Matthew 26:28)

In the Great Commission Jesus says this:

19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20)

They were not to teach all Moses had said. That was Old Covenant. Only those things that He specifically had taught them were to be included in the message they would pass on to the nations.

The word "nations" is "ethnos" The Hebrew equivalent is "goyim" which means all people not merely Jewish people. Had he wished to refer just to the Jews scattered throughout the nations He could have conveyed that by using the term "diaspora" as Peter did in 1 Peter 1:1.

Now when was this age of spreading Jesus gospel supposed to end - in 70 AD? Jesus answers this question:

…13"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

I am going to assume for the moment that "the end" coincides with the coming of the Messianic Kingdom and subduing the world. From Jesus' remark about "enduring to the end" I understand that there is going to be tribulation before "the end." Paul's remarks on the subject reveal that he and the Early Church interpreted Jesus' remarks that way too (Acts 14:22) It does not look like they expected to escape tribulation by being raptured out.

The end would not come until THIS gospel had been preached to all the nations in the world. Jesus apparently expected evangelization to continue until all nations had been reached. That certainly not happen during the lives of the disciples or for thousands of years afterward. Evangelization was to continue right up until He returned. Since He has not returned I am going to assume that His orders are still en force.

This scenario is, of course, inconsistent with the belief that Peter's mission was merely to evangelize the Jews with a special "Jewish Gospel" or with the belief that his mission subsequently failed and become obsolete in 30-50 years.

Yep, you cover your bases pretty well....except you are not even close to covering Paul's gospel. Your one mention in Galatians has to do with loving our neighbor which comes right out of the OT, but says nothing about how people are saved today....or how we become members of the BODY of Christ. Truly you act as if Jesus had nothing more for us after He went to the cross. What did the RISEN LORD reveal to Paul? Do you really have a clue? It doesn't sound like it when I read your long-winded posts where you do not get the to heart of the matter. How are people saved TODAY? You won't know unless you know what the RISEN LORD revealed to Paul.
 

musterion

Well-known member
The end would not come until THIS gospel had been preached to all the nations in the world. Jesus apparently expected evangelization to continue until all nations had been reached. That certainly [did] not happen during the lives of the disciples or for thousands of years afterward.

Nor has it happened yet. And the reason it hasn't is not because He lied, was wrong or was mistaken. It is because Israel, nationally, refused several opportunities to repent and bow before her Messiah, at which point she would have become the priest-nation she was intended to be, led by the Twelve to THEN take that gospel to all nations.

Keep missing that key point and you'll keep missing everything else.
 

turbosixx

New member
There is ONE baptism whereby believers are baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ....when they believe the Gospel of Salvation.

Could you please show me the passages you are basing this on. If you could, use ones you know without a doubt are talking about HS baptism. There are a lot of verses that mention baptism and without any further evidence it's automaticly assumed to be HS baptism. If there is one baptism then that would be a safe assumption, but does the bible talk about more than one baptism. Which one is this?

Acts 18:8 Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.
 

turbosixx

New member
The miraculous are the evidence of the Spirit of Heaven which accompanies all those truly sent by the Lord.

There is no cut off point to this---

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


Act 4:24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
Act 4:25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
Act 4:29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
Act 4:30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
Act 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
Act 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Act 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

before Paul!

LA

How do we see people receiving these spiritual gifts?
 

Right Divider

Body part
Could you please show me the passages you are basing this on. If you could, use ones you know without a doubt are talking about HS baptism. There are a lot of verses that mention baptism and without any further evidence it's automaticly assumed to be HS baptism. If there is one baptism then that would be a safe assumption, but does the bible talk about more than one baptism. Which one is this?

Acts 18:8 Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.
You are amazingly Biblically illiterate.
1Co 12:13 KJV For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
 

turbosixx

New member
There is no contradiction.
Losing your life is being a slave to God, sowing to His Spirit, loving because of Him in us, His love and light in us. Jesus will take care of the end. We're commanded to remain in Him. What's the fight? You don't think He can do in us what He says? Or you don't want to let Him? Maybe you really don't want Him now... You just want His fire insurance.

We're commanded to remain in Him. What's the fight? I'm not sure what your point is here.


You don't think He can do in us what He says? I know he can without a doubt.


Or you don't want to let Him? He in me and me in Him.

5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
 

turbosixx

New member
You are amazingly Biblically illiterate.
1Co 12:13 KJV For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Really? At least I'm staying consistant with the flow of the book. Is Paul talking about water baptism here?

1: 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,

Or here?
10:1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
Yep, you cover your bases pretty well....except you are not even close to covering Paul's gospel. Your one mention in Galatians has to do with loving our neighbor which comes right out of the OT, but says nothing about how people are saved today....or how we become members of the BODY of Christ. Truly you act as if Jesus had nothing more for us after He went to the cross. What did the RISEN LORD reveal to Paul? Do you really have a clue? It doesn't sound like it when I read your long-winded posts where you do not get the to heart of the matter. How are people saved TODAY? You won't know unless you know what the RISEN LORD revealed to Paul.

Amen!
 

Right Divider

Body part
Really? At least I'm staying consistant with the flow of the book. Is Paul talking about water baptism here?

1: 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,

Or here?
10:1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
Those BAPTIZED INTO MOSES did NOT get WET.

They PASSED THROUGH the SEA on DRY LAND.

There is ONE baptism for the body of Christ and it has NOTHING to do with getting wet.
Eph 4:1-6 KJV I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, (2) With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; (3) Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. (4) There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; (5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism, (6) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Paul learned this LATER. God does not reveal EVERYTHING ALL AT ONCE.
Heb 1:1 KJV God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,​
This dry (Spirit) baptism is much like how we "are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands" (Col 2:11).

You seriously need to move on from God's plans for Israel and get yourself into HIS CURRENT work with the body of Christ.
 

turbosixx

New member
Those BAPTIZED INTO MOSES did NOT get WET.

They PASSED THROUGH the SEA on DRY LAND.

So Paul's point in mentioning the cloud and the sea, twice, was to point out they didn't get wet? Really?

There is ONE baptism for the body of Christ and it has NOTHING to do with getting wet.
Eph 4:1-6 KJV I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, (2) With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; (3) Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. (4) There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; (5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism, (6) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

It says one baptism, how do you know this is Spirit baptism?

Is this Paul water baptizing or is the Spirit baptizing here? What do you default to if it doesn't say specifically?

Acts 18:8 Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized.

Paul learned this LATER. God does not reveal EVERYTHING ALL AT ONCE.
Agreed.

You seriously need to move on from God's plans for Israel and get yourself into HIS CURRENT work with the body of Christ.

Why do you think the plan is just for Israel? The gospel is for all.

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
 

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
We're commanded to remain in Him. What's the fight? I'm not sure what your point is here.


You don't think He can do in us what He says? I know he can without a doubt.


Or you don't want to let Him? He in me and me in Him.

5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
My point was for those who proclaim saved status but deny surrender to Christ and the Holy Spirit brings Him and salvation.
 

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
Yep, you cover your bases pretty well....except you are not even close to covering Paul's gospel. Your one mention in Galatians has to do with loving our neighbor which comes right out of the OT, but says nothing about how people are saved today....or how we become members of the BODY of Christ. Truly you act as if Jesus had nothing more for us after He went to the cross. What did the RISEN LORD reveal to Paul? Do you really have a clue? It doesn't sound like it when I read your long-winded posts where you do not get the to heart of the matter. How are people saved TODAY? You won't know unless you know what the RISEN LORD revealed to Paul.
"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the fruit you gets leads to sanctification and its end eternal life." Romans 6:22
Paul completely and unequivocally agrees with Jesus's teaching.
 
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