OSAS is the swindle of the century!
- Thread starter dialm
- Start date
The 'if' clause is referring to people who have heard Paul's gospel of salvation but believe in vain/futility because they don't believe in the literal resurrection of the dead. They may believe in the existence of the Lord Jesus, even wonders that He did, but if they don't believe that the dead come back to life, then they certainly don't believe that Jesus rose from the dead, therefore they have not truly believed and whatever faith that they may have, it is not enough if they don't believe in Christ's resurrection.
Paul is not using his 'if' clause in regard to those who are truly saved by believing in the literal death, burial and resurrection of Christ on the third day.
This does not refute the doctrine of eternal security/OSAS.
The 'if' clause only 'terminates the surety' if one does not believe that the dead are raised. Those who believe that the dead are raised and place their faith in Christ's resurrection have 'surety'.
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain[futile], and your faith is also vain[futile].
1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain[futile]; ye are yet in your sins.
Jamie Gigliotti
New member
Just pisteo; in Him! Personal trust; love in two way relationship started by His grace is a whole lot more than the cheap grace that says just believe the facts about what He did and don't worry about love, His love, Him... they don't matter? How many souls will be enchained by these lies??? Lord help us all!!
But, you missed the point of my argument entirely, and proceeded to offtrack into a different argument.
Jamie Gigliotti
New member
I argued against your concluding sentence. An ongoing love relationship is necessary, which we freely choose, He himself thus gives us security. We are not forced into this and we can walk away.
bsmitts
New member
That wasn't the point I was making.
bsmitts
New member
Divine election is scriptural. Just like OSAS. Just like "I can lose salvation." All of these conclusions have valid scriptural foundations. For instance: For OSAS, I could quote John 10:27-30; for losing salvation I could site 1 Timothy 4:1; and for Calvinism, I could quote Ephesians 1:4-5; Ephesians 1:11 and Romans 9:23-24.
This argument is not going to work steko.
OSAS means you can't lose your salvation. Get saved then turn your nose up to the resurrection and OSAS says you can't lose. Paul says get save and then you better continue in the faith.
You are saying the standard line
Those people were never saved in the first place just like those two that fell over dead. But if OSAS was there in the beginning it would have been whispering in their ears-
Go ahead and lie to the Holy Ghost. You can't lose your salvation and you get to keep the cash.
Regardless of where you carry this in regard to OSAS, I maintain that Paul's 'if clause' is placed there in relationship to those who don't believe in the resurrection of the dead, which is necessary to believe that Christ rose from the dead.
I'm merely saying that your argument against OSAS should not come from the text of ICo 15. This is not what Paul is talking about.
The 'futility', which Paul is referring to, is to think one has believed Paul's message and at the same time not believe that the dead are raised.
He's referring to people who have believed in a Jesus which gives them benefit 'in this life only'.
They haven't truly believed in His resurrection, because they don't believe in any resurrection of the dead at all.
Sorta' like those I've encountered who believe that the whole meaning of Christianity is to be found in the 'Sermon on the Mount'. I have asked some of these about the literal bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ and they look at me with a glazed expression and say things like, "Oh, I believe he lives in all of us 'spiritually", or "Oh, I don't think anyone can know anything about that for certain", or "Oh, that's just a metaphor for a joyous life", and the nonsense continues in any number of denials of the literal bodily resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Again, I'm not so much arguing, at this point, the OSAS question.
All I'm saying is that ICo 15 is not an argument against OSAS.
It's an argument for the literal bodily resurrection of Christ and Paul's gospel being rooted in that fact.
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Daniel1769
New member
The Jehovah's witnesses are works salvationists. You have that in common. Further, what do you mean "the Church?" Are you Catholic?
For your explanation to work the Apostle Paul would have had to
1 have first preached to those people something short of the Gospel
2 They would have had to believe that
3 Then the Apostle Paul would have realized his erroneous preaching didn't work
4 and then told them a different version
That is what would have had to take place for OSAS to be a legitimate doctrine. Otherwise those people would have been saved and it no longer mattered about the resurrection of the dead.
Not preaching works salvation. This is a comparison phase between
OSAS vs TULIP
it's call perseverance of the saints. That ain't Roman Catholic doctrine on paper. But take a look at chrysostom here at TOL. he certainly exhibits a lot of perseverance in the face of extreme calamity. Would to God that OSAS had some of that.
What you think compared to what?
There is a way that seemeth right to a...
That is scripture and it isn't so good.
What does it take to receive eternal life?
Daniel1769
New member
Comparing eternal security of the believer with God creating people for the purpose of sending them to hell? Comparing ETERNAL life to the satanic system of "TULIP" that was just made up by a murderous tyrant a few hundred years ago? There is no comparison.
It is as you say only in reverse. You just can't prove slander.
TULIP is where eternal security lives and breathes. OSAS ripped off John Calvin.
Daniel1769
New member
No one knew about TULIP until some murderous tyrant named Calvin brought that piece of heresy into the world. He even gave it an effeminate name. Probably a sodomite too since we already know he was a murderous tyrant.
You keep saying that but there is no proof. There is an OSAS thread on the subject but all it is is a rant fest.
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