ECT Open Theism debate

[Lazy afternoon]

1. It is not a cheap shot. Your claims are always refuted.

2. It is not your broken English that's the problem. The problem is when you have someone with better English to post as you. It insults us because you think we're too stupid to notice the difference.

3. You are not wrong because of your broken English. You are wrong because you are wrong.

You always read some evil motive into why others you despise do something.

Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

So.... You ignored all the verses I gave you about what sin is, and how believers are not under the law, but continue in the same ignorance the Jews had for Paul's teaching of the Law and Grace. You simply don't want to hear anything that proves you wrong about your ignorant "knowingly sin" charge you so freely heap upon true believers. :nono: We were freed from the Law so we wouldn't have to listen to this ridiculous charge from the accuser of the brethren. Romans 8:33

You removed the law altogether so you can claim you can not break it.

The covenant of the law is not the same thing as the law itself which you claim is removed by Christs sacrifice.

There's a lot you don't get. "Abiding by the Law of the Spirit" is just another of your nonsensical evidences of double speak.

The Law of the Spirit is not something we "abide by".

It's like the law of gravity. It exists, whether we think we can "abide" by it or not. Same with the Law of Sin and Death. Your willingness to "abide by" that law doesn't matter one whit. It's a fact of existence. You sin you die. You step from a tall building, you fall to the ground. We believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Law of the Spirit of Life IN CHRIST frees us from the Law of Sin and Death. Those IN CHRIST LIVE....there is no condemnation for those IN CHRIST Jesus. We move from death to Life by what Christ accomplished for us.

There is no condemnation to those who walk by the Spirit and not by the flesh.Rom 8.

Paul would not have had to wrestle with sin if the law did not say thou shall not covet. Romans 7.

The verses--

Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Where you see the word "law" you just lump it all to mean the same thing and you always say it is was and is bad.



Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.


Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


LA

 

[glorydaz]

Once we have faith, then we should be obeying God and Christ Jesus.

Just what the Jews claimed sans Christ Jesus.

Jesus' words are Spirit and they are life and they are the truth.

Which means WHAT?

And his word is for everyone.

AND.....Your point?

 

[glorydaz]

That didn't explain anything.

It did, but it went over your head, as usual.

You just keep saying the same thing without addressing my questions.

No, I respond to your posts. You just don't like my response.

Why is there a law of the Spirit if it is irrelevant?

It's no more irrelevant than the Law of Gravity. :chew:

Why give the law of the Spirit to the believer at all of not to be followed?

Why have the Law of Sin and Death at all if it can't be "followed"?
Why have the Law of Gravity at all if it can't be "followed"?

Oh, those laws can't be "followed".....they simply EXIST. They exist because they are God's NATURAL LAWS.

The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ is one of God's Natural Laws where believers are NEW CREATIONS.

And you never responded to the verses I posted showing without a doubt that each and every person who ever lived will be judged against their actions.

No, I mentioned the Bema Seat which applies to those IN CHRIST. You just don't know what that is. The Judgement seat of Christ is where the Lord will pass out rewards and loss of rewards for service, etc. Read this text so I don't have to keep explaining the same thing over and over again.

1 Cor. 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.​

 

[glorydaz]

(context is important)

Romans 7: 21. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22.

Spoiler

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 8: 1. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4.

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5. For they that are after the flesh do

mind

the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7.

(We see here it is one of two options; one of which is synonymous with hypocrisy)

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

(You say you are not subject to the law)

9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13.

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15.

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;

if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

( We are to be burdened while in this life; this blink of an eye.)

19. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24.

For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

(Now tell me again you know you are safe after this verse specifically says we do not know but hope and in that hope and because of that hope we do follow the law of the Spirit ( the one you say is not needed for salvation nor is it needed to listen to or follow such for salvation))

25. But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

(Patiently waiting is synonymous with abiding by what one knows by the Spirit and exuding perseverance with hope)

26. Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28.

And we know that all things

work

together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also

justified:

(Being justified is being pure and not in knowing hypocrisy)


and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32. He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?

shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

(We will be tried and tested and it isn't so we can fold our hand, but we are to run the race to the end, to the utmost of our extent in earnest with full assurance of the truth that is known, yet not seen.)

36. As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37. Nay, in all these things we are more than

conquerors

(Not synonymous with those who tarry and waver and procrastinate)


through him that loved us. 38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If you have a point, make it. Paul is speaking as one under the law in Romans 7. As a Carnal man under bondage to the law. Paul was neither wretched nor did he do those things he hated.

Simply put. You don't know what Paul is teaching about the law in Romans 6, 7, and 8. He goes on to make it clear when he says, "Ye are NOT IN THE FLESH, BUT IN THE SPIRIT if the Spirit of God dwells in you." That is the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ....the presence of the Holy Spirit which the "wretched man", the carnal, captive man does not have.

 

[glorydaz]

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


LA

We establish the very PURPOSE OF THE LAW. The purpose of the law was to show men their sin (find the whole world guilty), and lead them to faith in Christ. It's summed up by Paul right here. Read it and heed it.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.​

 

[Lazy afternoon]

We establish the very PURPOSE OF THE LAW.

No. You added to Gods word.

We establish the law.--

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

You void the law altogether so you can claim exemption from the law which is not just to expose sin.

Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

 

[glorydaz]

No. You added to Gods word.

I didn't add to it. I explained it.

We establish the law.--

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

You void the law altogether so you can claim exemption from the law which is not just to expose sin.

Spoiler

Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Yes, we establish the Law through faith.

How does Faith establish the Law? What is YOUR answer to that question? :chew:


While I wait, I'll give you my answer.

As Paul had to explain over and over to the Jews, the Law was given to man for a purpose, and it was NOT what the Jews thought it was. They were accusing Paul of exactly what you're accusing me of -- Making the Law void. Untrue then, and untrue now.

The Law does not make us righteous, justify us, nor does it give us life. BUT FAITH DOES all those things.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.​

It's faith that justifies man....not the Law. In fact, it's faith that gives us life, and it's faith that accounts us righteous.

So, what does the law actually accomplish? It shows men their sins...proves them guilty.

Romans 3:20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.​

The schoolmaster until faith comes. The law has done it's job, and is useful for that alone.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.​

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Yes, we establish the Law through faith.

How does Faith establish the Law? What is YOUR answer to that question? :chew:

You admit that the law is not done away with, which you previously claimed.

You have claimed that the only law which exists is the law of faith.

Now you seem to be changing your views a bit. That is good.

The entire OT is called the law and the prophets.

Pro 1:1 The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;
Pro 1:2 To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;
Pro 1:3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;
Pro 1:4 To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.
Pro 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
Pro 1:6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Pro 1:8 My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:
Pro 1:9 For they shall be an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck.

Psa 119:1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
Psa 119:2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
Psa 119:3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
Psa 119:4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
Psa 119:5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
Psa 119:6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
Psa 119:7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
Psa 119:8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.
Psa 119:9 BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
Psa 119:10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
Psa 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
Psa 119:12 Blessed art thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes.
Psa 119:13 With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth.
Psa 119:14 I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies, as much as in all riches.
Psa 119:15 I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways.
Psa 119:16 I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.
Psa 119:17 GIMEL. Deal bountifully with thy servant, that I may live, and keep thy word.
Psa 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.


LA

 

[glorydaz]

You admit that the law is not done away with, which you previously claimed.

You haven't been paying attention if you think that. I have always said the same thing. The Law is not "done away with" for the unsaved. It's still there to serve it's purpose, which I already mentioned...to show men their sin and lead them to Christ.

It has served it's purpose for those who believe. We are been delivered from the Law and it's bondage...from it's condemnation. We have been freed from the Law of sin and death.

We are no longer under the Schoolmaster....it is for the ungodly.

You have claimed that the only law which exists is the law of faith.

Now you seem to be changing your views a bit. That is good.

Not true. The law of sin and death still exists, but believers have been freed from it.

The entire OT is called the law and the prophets.

Spoiler

Pro 1:1 The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;
Pro 1:2 To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;
Pro 1:3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;
Pro 1:4 To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.
Pro 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
Pro 1:6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Pro 1:8 My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:
Pro 1:9 For they shall be an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck.

Psa 119:1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
Psa 119:2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
Psa 119:3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
Psa 119:4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
Psa 119:5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
Psa 119:6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
Psa 119:7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
Psa 119:8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.
Psa 119:9 BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
Psa 119:10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
Psa 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
Psa 119:12 Blessed art thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes.
Psa 119:13 With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth.
Psa 119:14 I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies, as much as in all riches.
Psa 119:15 I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways.
Psa 119:16 I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.
Psa 119:17 GIMEL. Deal bountifully with thy servant, that I may live, and keep thy word.
Psa 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.

LA

The OT certainly contains the Law and Prophets. That has nothing to do with our being delivered from the Law.

 

[popsthebuilder]

It did, but it went over your head, as usual.



No, I respond to your posts. You just don't like my response.



It's no more irrelevant than the Law of Gravity. :chew:



Why have the Law of Sin and Death at all if it can't be "followed"?
Why have the Law of Gravity at all if it can't be "followed"?

Oh, those laws can't be "followed".....they simply EXIST. They exist because they are God's NATURAL LAWS.

The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ is one of God's Natural Laws where believers are NEW CREATIONS.



No, I mentioned the Bema Seat which applies to those IN CHRIST. You just don't know what that is. The Judgement seat of Christ is where the Lord will pass out rewards and loss of rewards for service, etc. Read this text so I don't have to keep explaining the same thing over and over again.

1 Cor. 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.​

So it is your belief that the law of the Spirit in just a law similar to the law of gravity; a law that binds us to the earth or physicality? That sounds sort of carnal to me.
And besides; the law of gravity is used for pretty much everything that has anything to do with the physical, so though it(the law of gravity) is carnal in that it literally pertains to the physical; even it is constantly used by all men for all manner of work and leisure. It encompasses our very existence (physically); so how much more so do you really think that the law of the Spirit is indeed for is to use, and learn from, and to abide by.

GOD doesn't put the law of gravity into our hearts and minds.It is outwardly experienced and observed. Yet we wholly submit to it.

But you want to act like submitting to the law of the Spirit after being given new life is only a determining factor for the amount or size of your reward? Not pertinent to remaining saved, just that you will suffer loss. What sort of loss do you think one might suffer? So we don't do anything to get saved but believe or rather hope, and once we are saved then it doesn't matter what we do unless we are greedy and worry about the level of attainment or placement we will receive in the afterlife?

So.....that equals safe and secure for all eternity to you?

And one who has received faith in Christ and GOD, and silently does, to the extent of their ability, what they know to be good, outwardly, giving all praise to GOD and no recognition to self....in contrast this person is not going to be safe to you?


The laws of GOD don't just "exist"; they are utterly binding.

look out at the stars at night and see how much they move of you think the decree of GOD is in vain.

What GOD starts within a soul will be finished, by GOD.

don't you know that if one doesn't do the known will of GOD in their life that it is of no consequence to GOD. They will simply be replaced. It is indeed of great consequence to them.

And that consequence is not loss of reward. Don't you know we that do, do not do for reward?

This really is the first time I've heard of osas with the additional rewards scale thing.....can you show more scripture to support that?



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[popsthebuilder]

If you have a point, make it. Paul is speaking as one under the law in Romans 7. As a Carnal man under bondage to the law. Paul was neither wretched nor did he do those things he hated.

Simply put. You don't know what Paul is teaching about the law in Romans 6, 7, and 8. He goes on to make it clear when he says, "Ye are NOT IN THE FLESH, BUT IN THE SPIRIT if the Spirit of God dwells in you." That is the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ....the presence of the Holy Spirit which the "wretched man", the carnal, captive man does not have.

The Holy Spirit that we aren't to abide by, right?

This is getting pretty outrageous.

You accuse me of insinuating things, but your posts are full of them. You speak of carnal this and that but show that carnal is all you have ever known evidently. You pretend like you know the Spirit but you are full of spite, hate, and, contempt.

I won't be wasting my time on the scripture to show to show the traits you repeatedly exude are wholly opposed to one who actually knows GOD. If anyone is curious then they can search it out themselves.

If one is of the Spirit then all they do (work; we all do it all the time) will be for GOD. it's that simple. You still seem to be conflating holy and righteous and new and like Christ with the capacity to sin. And you can say that one doesn't have the option to sin if they are in the Spirit, but that is completely different from what you have been saying and also, even Jesus was tempted so how would we not be even in Christ?

So you won't be judged? Is that your final answer?

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[popsthebuilder]

I didn't add to it. I explained it.




Yes, we establish the Law through faith.

How does Faith establish the Law? What is YOUR answer to that question? :chew:


While I wait, I'll give you my answer.

As Paul had to explain over and over to the Jews, the Law was given to man for a purpose, and it was NOT what the Jews thought it was. They were accusing Paul of exactly what you're accusing me of -- Making the Law void. Untrue then, and untrue now.

The Law does not make us righteous, justify us, nor does it give us life. BUT FAITH DOES all those things.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.​

It's faith that justifies man....not the Law. In fact, it's faith that gives us life, and it's faith that accounts us righteous.

So, what does the law actually accomplish? It shows men their sins...proves them guilty.

Romans 3:20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.​

The schoolmaster until faith comes. The law has done it's job, and is useful for that alone.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.​

Faith establishes the law because the law is written on the hearts and minds of the believer upon reception of faith.

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[Tambora]

Folks, I am closing this thread because it has gone off topic.
Feel free to start another thread for your discussion and you can copy/paste some of your thoughts from this thread into the new one.
No biggie, just didn't want all the lurkers being disappointed that this thread is no longer about the Open Theism Debate.

 

[Tambora]

Stay on topic please.

Thank you.

 

[Tambora]

Matthew 26
(53) Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?


Is Jesus indicating that He could have really done that, or was He just pulling their leg?

 

[Danoh]

Matthew 26
(53) Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?


Is Jesus indicating that He could have really done that, or was He just pulling their leg?

One of the things going on within that overall dynamic there, was His basically telling them that He could have easily wiped them all out were He so inclined; that they were able to take Him only because He was allowing them to in His obedience to the Father's will.

Matthew 26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

On the other side of that equation, they were also actually carrying out the Father's intended will as well; but with wicked hands.

Luke 22:53 When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.

Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Acts 17: 11, 12.

 

[Tambora]

He could have easily

The Settled View says Jesus could not have done it, because He could do nothing that was not already predetermined to happen.
Open View believes Jesus told the truth and that He could indeed do as He said He could.

 

[Tambora]

Critique of the Will Duffy vs. Matt Slick debate on Open Theism.

 

[Danoh]

The Settled View says Jesus could not have done it, because He could do nothing that was not already predetermined to happen.
Open View believes Jesus told the truth and that He could indeed do as He said He could.

The short version of my reply is the "neither" the black "nor" the white, but rather, the shade of grey in between that often appears to have been the Apostle Paul's God-given point of departure when looking out at one thing or another.

In this case, that shade of grey that had also been on that table..

Matthew 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

Rom. 14:5 - in memory of Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.