Sure , He did;
John 10:30 New King James Version (NKJV)
30 I and My Father are one.”
But nowhere does that say that Jesus is the Father. It says they are of the same essence.
The Greek text says we are one showing that they are different.
Only Y-H-W-H is God, besides Him there is no god!
- Thread starter Elia
- Start date
Sure , He did;
John 10:30 New King James Version (NKJV)
30 I and My Father are one.”
But nowhere does that say that Jesus is the Father. It says they are of the same essence.
The Greek text says we are one showing that they are different.
God's Truth
New member
Since Jesus says when I see him I see the Father, why does it bother you that I look to my Lord and Savior and say he is the same as the Father?
One question which may bear some fruit and answer a lot of questions. Did the Father die on the cross?
God's Truth
New member
Yes, in the flesh.
God's Truth
New member
Jesus says when we see him, we see the Father. Don't you think Jesus was seen on the cross?
You are a heretic. Only the Son could die. That was His reason for coming. Even scripture speaks of God and His redeemer. You need to change your theology and get saved. You are walking a very broad road.
God's Truth
New member
Could Jesus be seen on the cross? Jesus says when you see him you see the Father.
Scripture?
God's Truth
New member
See John 14:7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
John 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
John 12:45 The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me.
John 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
John 12:45 The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me.
It means if you have come to know me spiritually and experientually, you should have known that I and the Father are one, one in essence and unity not in number.
There is no right understanding of Jesus until the Father is actually seen in Him. The verse presents the very embodiment of who Messiah would be; If we want to know what God is like look to the Son
This has to be done by faith because Christ in His human form offered no expression of deity.
God's Truth
New member
I believe exactly what Jesus says. Jesus said plainly that when you see him you have seen the Father.
No. You believe that Jesus is the Father which is a heretical lie
God's Truth
New member
God says Jesus will be called God, Father, and Holy Spirit. So that is what I call Jesus.
Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
:kookoo:
Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
Isaiah 9:2-7 "2 The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined. 3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, thou hast increased its joy; they rejoice before thee as with joy at the harvest, as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For the yoke of his burden, and the staff for his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, thou hast broken as on the day of Mid'ian. 5 For every boot of the tramping warrior in battle tumult and every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire. 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."
Please take notice of the fact that Isaiah is talking in the past tense: "The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined.|
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government is upon his shoulder, and his name was called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
These are things which had happened already in the days of Isaiah.
If, despite these facts, you still want to apply these verses to JC, than read verse 5, 6, and 7, and see that JC didn't do any of those things. He never ruled on the throne of David, he never had any government on his shoulders, and there never was endless peace over his kingdom.
The same holds true for the verses 6 and 7: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."
All of this doesn't hold true for JC; he never had any government on his shoulder. And also here is spoken in the past tense: "A child is born, a son is given. But most translations give it in the future tense. For instance the RSV, NIV, NAS, ESV, KJV, NIRV, the all say; "His name will be called ....", future tense. However, in the Hebrew text this too is past tense: "His name was called ...." The Hebrew expression here is "wayikra". That is the first word in the book of Leviticus. And all the previously mentioned translations there say: "And the Lord called Mozes ..." Past tense. Exactly the same the word. Isn't that weird? Exactly the same word is used in Genesis 5:1; "And God called the light 'day'" Called. Past tense. Nobody argues with that one. But why then, in Isaiah 9, is it suddenly changed to future tense? The answer is simple: The past tense doesn't fit with the Christian theology, and therefore the Bible translations are corrupted and twisted to fit the Christian religion. Just like that. There is only one solution for this problem: Take a course in Biblical Hebrew. It is more easy then it looks. Then your eyes will be opened and the Christian deception will stare you in the face. And yes, I do sympathize with the poor misguided Christians whom are being led astray by their clergy by means of twisted and corrupted Bible translations. That's the reason why I fulfill my duty of being a light unto the nations and uncovering the Christian deception.
"Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end" "There will be no end", future tense. And this too is WRONG. It is in the Hebrew present tense. I found only one translation which is correct here, and that is Young's Literal Translation.
Why all this stress on the tenses? Isaiah spoke about a king who was living in his days, and therefore JC is out. The king that Isaiah speaks about is Hezekiah, the son of Achaz who got from Isaiah the sign about the young woman (no, not the virgin) who was pregnant and gave birth to the son Immanuel.
The Talmud explains that under the rule of the God fearing Hezekiah the Jewish kingdom rose to great heights, and that's why he was entitled to those impressive titles.
Because of the fact that the name of the son is "Mighty God", (or "God is Mighty", both are possible translations) and "Eternals Father", the Christians deduce that the boy spoken about must have been God.
HOWEVER, a name is only that; a name. A name is not a description of the bearer of that name. An example: Buffalo Bill was not a buffalo. The indian chief Sitting Bull was not a bull.
Many times people in the Bible have in their name the word "God", or the name of God, but that doesn't mean that those people are God. For instance; in Exodus 6:23 is spoken about a man called "Elazar". That means "God is helper", or "Helping God". But that doesn't mean that that man was God.
Exodus 6:24; "Elkanah", that means "God acquired", or "acquiring God". II Samuel 22:19; "Elchanan"; "God is merciful", or "Merciful God". But these men were not God, just like the the child in Isaiah 9 wasn't God.
Apart from that, the Hebrew words "El gibor", in Christian Bibles translated with "Mighty God", can have a different meaning. "El" can mean "God", but it can also mean "judge", "leader", or "mighty man". In Exodus 4:16 God says to Moses that he will be of an elohiem for his brother Aharon. ("elohim" is the longer form of the word "el") This doesn't mean that Moses was a God for Aharon and Aharon started to worship his brother, it meant that Moses would be the leader of Aharon.
In Exodus 21:1-6 is spoken about a slave who after the normal period of servitude ended, doesn't want to leave his master. In that case the owner has to take him to court, where the slave will make a statement that he doesn't want to leave his master, and that he will serve his master until his death. The Hebrew text there says that his master must take him to the "elohim". There the NAS, ASV, ESV, NRSV, RSV, YLT, they all say that his master must take him "to God". However, his master doesn't take him for a ride to heaven, but takes him to the courthouse. Therefore the NIV, KJV, TNIV, and the NIRV, they all say that the master must take him to "the judges".
Even so in Isaiah 9 the word "El" does not necessarily mean "God". Therefore the text in Isaiah 9 is in no way a proof that the child spoken about was God.
Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Three is three, and one is one. One is not three, and three is not one.
There is only one God, Y-H-W-H, who IS one. (and not three)
A "God the Father" and a "god the son" is TWO (2) gods, and not one.
Learn to count to two, and you'll see the Christian idolatry.
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
The Tanach, for the Christians the OT, teaches very clearly that there is only ONE God, and that is Y-H-W-H.
People who want to look that over in detail can look here: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/god-of-israel
So if anybody wants to say that Christ was God, or divine, than he has no choice than to say that Christ was Y-H-W-H, because there simply is no other God than Y-H-W-H.
But then you encounter the following problems:
If anybody says Christ is the same as Y-H-W-H then you are stuck with the fact that Y-H-W-H is his own son and at the same time his own father.
Then you are stuck with the fact that when Christ prays to his father, Y-H-W-H is praying to himself.
* Luke 22:41-42:* “and He knelt down and began to pray, saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."
So here Y-H-W-H has a different will than himself???
Even in heaven Christ is subjected to the Father, according to Corinthians 15:28, Matthew 20:23, Fillipens 2:9, and others.
So Y-H-W-H is subjected to himself???
*
When Christ was hanging at the cross, he cried out: “My God, my God, why did you forsake me?”* Matthew 27:46
So Y-H-W-H forsook himself???
*
Collossians 3:1;* “set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.”
Y-H-W-H is sitting at his own right hand???
*
Y-H-W-H died at the cross, slaughtered by his own creatures?
If so, who resurrected him?
* Remember there is only one God: Y-H-W-H who IS one.
By now it should be clear to everybody that it is IMPOSSIBLE that Christ was or is God.
And from that we learn that Christians who worship Christ are idol worshipers.
For more information why Christ was not God and not the messiah, look here:* http://MountZion.notlong.com
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
A trinitarian is somebody who doesn't believe in the Bible, but only in church dogma.
Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”
Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
Genesis 1:26; "Let us make man" If anybody finds in a text the word "us", would any normal person assume that it refers to one person with a multi-personality disorder? Of course not.
But why then, when Christians see the word "us" in the Bible, do they think that?
Gen 1:26 is used as a 'proof' that there is more than one God, or one God who is not one, eventhough the Bible clearly teaches that there is only one God who is one. and despite the fact that there are several other valid explanations for the plural word "us". One explanation is that it is a majestic plural as used by kings. Another possible explanation is that God was talking to the angels.
Some Christians try to refute the last argument by saying that the angels didn't create. They point to Genesis 1:1; "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." They say: 'God was the creator, and not the angels.' However, it is a given in Jewish law that an emissary is equal to the one who sends him. When a Jewish man marries a woman through an agent, the legal effect is the same as when he marries her personally. A good Biblical example of this is to be found in Genesis 19 where is spoken about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. God sent two angels to destroy the cities, the angels said to Lot in verse 13: "For we are about to destroy this place, because the outcry against its people has become great before the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it." Upon this Lot says to his sons in law: "Up, get out of this place; for the LORD is about to destroy the city." Lot didn't say: "The angels are going to destroy the city" He said: "The LORD (Y-H-W-H in the Hebrew text) is going to destroy the city". And in verse 29 it is written: "So it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the valley...." So the angels were send by God to destroy the cities, but God is considered to be the one who did it, because He was the one who sent them. So why shouldn't the same hold true for the creation?
But one way or the other, no plural created man. Look in Genesis 5:1; "When God created man ..." In Hebrew this is: "bara Elohiem adam" Here the verb "to create", in Hebrew "bara", is in the singular, indicating clearly that Elohiem who created man is one. The same goes for the very first verse of the Bible: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The word created is here written in the singular; it says "bara". If God was a plural, it should have been "baru".
BUT, back to the pronouns, Y-H-W-H says the following:
Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”
It says "I" am Y-H-W-H. And, as we all know, "I" is singular, and not plural, and therefore no three persons in Y-H-W-H. Otherwise He would have said: "WE are Y-H-W-H."
But no such thing, God says: "I am Y-H-W-H".
No trinity.
Another example of a pronoun:
Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”
As we see, it says that YOU, in the Hebrew singular, not plural are Y-H-W-H.
Again, no YOU, plural, are Y-H-W-H, but YOU singular, are Y-H-W-H.
So no three persons in God.
Another one:
Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”
Clear what? It doesn't say: “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: WE are the first and WE are the last; apart from US there is no God.”
No such a thing, it is all SINGULAR.
Another one:
Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”
Again, God says: "I am Y-H-W-H", and not "WE are Y-H-W-H" Such a thing simply doesn't exist.
I can go on and on with this, but these examples suffice. There is NO plurality in God.
And the word "us" when God speaks to the angels, does not imply otherwise.