On Rape (the original statement)

[Tambora]

The stripper bears responsibility for her actions that incited the rape.

I still strongly disagree.

This is like trying to use the same defense as "the video game incited me to do ___ ".

Bogus baloney.

 

[Rusha]

Bingo.

The rapist bears the sole responsibility for the rape.

The stripper bears responsibility for her actions that incited the rape.

Sorry, but no one can incite another person to commit violence. This is the EXACT argument used by those who support hate crime laws.

"Using the *N* word made the physical assault of a black person the fault by person who used that word".

"Using the *F* term made someone in earshot assault a homosexual".

Violence is in the heart and mentality of the person committing the act.

How far should this blame the victim game be taken? IF a teen/women is at a gathering and someone slips her a drug and then rapes her, is she responsible for for simply showing up?

IF a frat boy/business man is leaving a gathering, restaurant, etc. and they are jumped and beaten, under this scenario, they would hold a share of responsibility for walking in the location of their attacker ...

 

[Tambora]

Agree, but the negligence of say leaving your keys in your car, or your car running while you ran into the quick mart, does play a role in your car being stolen, even though you arent guilty of theft.

What?
The only reason the car was STOLEN is because a thief decided to STEAL it.
Because you left it running with the the keys in it is NOT the reason it was STOLEN.

 

[Rusha]

What?
The only reason the car was STOLEN is because a thief decided to STEAL it.
Because you left it running with the the keys in it is NOT the reason it was STOLEN.

In the same way that having a package, delivered at a person's front door, stolen by a neighbor or someone passing way.

The person expecting that package should have known better than to shower.

 

[glorydaz]

Sorry, but no one can incite another person to commit violence. This is the EXACT argument used by those who support hate crime laws.

"Using the *N* word made the physical assault of a black person the fault by person who used that word".

"Using the *F* term made someone in earshot assault a homosexual".

Violence is in the heart and mentality of the person committing the act.

How far should this blame the victim game be taken? IF a teen/women is at a gathering and someone slips her a drug and then rapes her, is she responsible for for simply showing up?

IF a frat boy/business man is leaving a gathering, restaurant, etc. and they are jumped and beaten, under this scenario, they would hold a share of responsibility for walking in the location of their attacker ...

No, don't take it to the extreme, but don't pretend like blame is a one way street, either. When people ever give themselves the license to do whatever they like without fear of consequences they'll have moved into la la land. Playing the victim is America's favorite pastime. I hate to see it encouraged.

 

[Angel4Truth]

I still strongly disagree.

This is like trying to use the same defense as "the video game incited me to do ___ ".

Bogus baloney.

I disagree, I believe the full situation was presented as the woman knowingly entered a frat party where all the men were really drunk, she was unescorted by anyone to protect her - where she proceeded to strip completely naked and even lap dance all over them and tease them all night...

Contrasted with a very drunk woman coming on to a man then deciding she really didnt want to, after it had already begun then saying rape the next day and he is charged with rape, them citing because she was drunk she couldnt consent and not responsible for her actions....

So drunk women arent responsible, but drunk men are?

If drunk needs to be considered as not responsible, it would have to be considered both ways.

While the stripper didn't ask to be raped, or didn't willfully plan on it, her poor choices led to it having happened- like in most negligence cases, she put herself knowing they were drunk - stripped naked and teased them all, in harms way.

She still isnt guilty of rape and the rapist is fully responsible for it - but she bears responsibility for her poor choice, does that make more sense?

 

[Rusha]

No, don't take it to the extreme, but don't pretend like blame is a one way street, either. When people ever give themselves the license to do whatever they like without fear of consequences they'll have moved into la la land. Playing the victim is America's favorite pastime. I hate to see it encouraged.

So, in that case, a homeowner who doesn't lock their guns up in a hidden, secure safe is responsible if a thief breaks in, steals the gun and then uses it in a robbery or homicide?

 

[glorydaz]

What?
The only reason the car was STOLEN is because a thief decided to STEAL it.
Because you left it running with the the keys in it is NOT the reason it was STOLEN.

But we aren't living in heaven yet. We know we live in a world of sin, and we know we can't walk through this world as if there was nothing to fear.

If I leave a steak laying on the back porch, some critter is going to get it. It would be my fault if I didn't have any steak for dinner that night.

 

[Tambora]

How far should this blame the victim game be taken?

We are seeing that more and more, arn't we.

The video game enticed me to kill.
The woman stripping enticed me to rape.
The man dropping his wallet enticed me to steal.
The unattended child enticed me to kidnap.
blah
blah
blah

MORONS!

 

[Angel4Truth]

In the same way that having a package, delivered at a person's front door, stolen by a neighbor or someone passing way.

The person expecting that package should have known better than to shower.

Actually the negligence of the deliverer, plays a role in not having it signed for and left with someone to be accountable, which is why UPS would have to cover the loss of the stolen package, their driver put it in harms way so they take responsibility.

 

[glorydaz]

So, in that case, a homeowner who doesn't lock their guns up in a hidden, secure safe is responsible if a thief breaks in, steals the gun and then uses it in a robbery or homicide?

No, Rush, that is an extreme example. Just because you come up with one case scenario does not mean that is the only one. :doh:

 

[Tambora]

BTW .... good thread.

 

[Angel4Truth]

So, in that case, a homeowner who doesn't lock their guns up in a hidden, secure safe is responsible if a thief breaks in, steals the gun and then uses it in a robbery or homicide?

Nope, the thief bears all responsibility for breaking in. It wasnt sitting outside unlocked for them to just take, put in harms way.

 

[glorydaz]

Actually the negligence of the deliverer, plays a role in not having it signed for and left with someone to be accountable, which is why UPS would have to cover the loss of the stolen package, their driver put it in harms way so they take responsibility.

Once again Angel comes up with the "Rest of the Story". We have our own Paul Harvey right here on TOL. :thumb:

 

[glorydaz]

BTW .... good thread.

This is the most fun I've had in ages. A good discussion. :thumb:

 

[Rusha]

Actually the negligence of the deliverer, plays a role in not having it signed for and left with someone to be accountable, which is why UPS would have to cover the loss of the stolen package, their driver put it in harms way so they take responsibility.

Not all packages require a signature ... same as receiving mail in the mailbox.

Same standard. IF a thief steals mail (from the box) which includes a credit card, check, private info, package, etc., the receiver is partially responsible.

Whether it be scorching summer heat or winter blizzard, it's their responsibility to stand guard in front of the mail box until the delivery guy visits or passes their home.

 

[glorydaz]

We are seeing that more and more, arn't we.

The video game enticed me to kill.
The woman stripping enticed me to rape.
The man dropping his wallet enticed me to steal.
The unattended child enticed me to kidnap.
blah
blah
blah

MORONS!

Yep, there's that side.

Then we have the poor me victims.

All I did was spit in his face....he had no right.
All I did was sit naked on his lap.....he had no right.
All I did was leave my kid sitting in a hot car....not my fault.

blah
blah
blah

MORONS!

 

[Angel4Truth]

Not all packages require a signature ... same as receiving mail in the mailbox.

No, they dont, but knowing quite clearly that just leaving outside unattended can create a theft, ups covers it when its left there and its missing - i know it happened to me, i told them i never got it, and they replaced the item.

Same standard. IF a thief steals mail (from the box) which includes a credit card, check, private info, package, etc., the receiver is partially responsible.

yes, they would be for not making sure their mail receptacle is secure knowing the times we live in - which is why a lot of people these days have po boxes with a key.

 

[Rusha]

Nope, the thief bears all responsibility for breaking in. It wasnt sitting outside unlocked for them to just take, put in harms way.

So ... a drunken women or a teen or woman who has a drug slipped into their beverage are the equivalent of someone "sitting outside unlocked for them to just take, put in harms way."?

I guess the same could be said of someone having diabetic reaction ...

 

[kmoney]

why not?

Because the only person responsible for what a rapist does is the rapist.

would you have the same opinion for any crime other than rape?

:idunno: Probably.

should a battered woman (one of the other themes in my class) who chooses to stay with her abusive husband bear any responsibility for the continued abuse?

I think it depends on what you mean by her bearing responsibility. If it means the abuser receives less of a punishment because the woman doesn't leave then I wouldn't agree with that. I do think a woman who chooses to stay has less sympathy though.

for rape? dunno

but i do know that the battered woman one has legal implications - if a woman chooses to stay in a dangerous situation after being given the opportunity to leave, the courts often are less apt to give harsh sentencing to the husband when the abuse continues

I don't think I'd agree with that lighter punishment. And beyond that, that seems a bit different because you are comparing an ongoing situation and one in which the women could leave to a one-time incident.