On Rape (the original statement)

[Rusha]

yes, they would be for not making sure their mail receptacle is secure knowing the times we live in - which is why a lot of people these days have po boxes with a key.

So if someone steals your mail, it's your fault the person is a thief? If someone hot wires your care, it's your fault?

If someone breaks into your garage and steals a can of gasoline and then burns down an apartment building, you are responsible for the deaths of all those people?

 

[ok doser]

Because the only person responsible for what a rapist does is the rapist.


:idunno: Probably.


I think it depends on what you mean by her bearing responsibility. If it means the abuser receives less of a punishment because the woman doesn't leave then I wouldn't agree with that. I do think a woman who chooses to stay has less sympathy though.


I don't think I'd agree with that lighter punishment. And beyond that, that seems a bit different because you are comparing an ongoing situation and one in which the women could leave to a one-time incident.

give these a shot

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114246

 

[Angel4Truth]

So ... a drunken women or a teen or woman who has a drug slipped into their beverage are the equivalent of someone "sitting outside unlocked for them to just take, put in harms way."?

I guess the same could be said of someone having diabetic reaction ...

Is a different situation then willfully getting smashed and regretting what happened the next day.

 

[kmoney]

there must a link between rape and rampant promiscuity
so
who do you think is really responsible for rampant promiscuity?

what link is that?

 

[Angel4Truth]

So if someone steals your mail, it's your fault the person is a thief?

nope, never said it was or suggested it. I suggested that i would bear some responsibility for the loss if i was neglectful in some way.

If someone hot wires your care, it's your fault?

Nope, never said it was or suggested it, but if i left my car running and unlocked and then it was stolen, i am partially responsible for the loss of my car because of my own neglect to secure my property.

If someone breaks into your garage and steals a can of gasoline and then burns down an apartment building, you are responsible for the deaths of all those people?

Nope, they had to break in, my property was secure - no neglect on my part.

 

[glorydaz]

So if someone steals your mail, it's your fault the person is a thief? If someone hot wires your care, it's your fault?

If someone breaks into your garage and steals a can of gasoline and then burns down an apartment building, you are responsible for the deaths of all those people?

Why the extremes?

I know, because the best defense is a good offense.




It does fail to address other side, though, and there is always another side.

 

[Rusha]

Is a different situation then willfully getting smashed and regretting what happened the next day.

I was speaking of rape, not consensual sex.

Sort of like the movie "The Accused".

She was at the bar. She was drinking. Flirty. Tipsy. That means she reallllly wanted all of us to hold her down and rape her.

The movie conveyed the same message: She was asking for it.

 

[Rusha]

Why the extremes?

I know, because the best defense

No extremes ... because *victims* are not the one's who need a defense.

Oddly enough, the only time victims are normally attacked while the attackers are defended are when the victims are female.

Shame on woman for not having control over the gender they were born with.

 

[Angel4Truth]

I was speaking of rape, not consensual sex.

And there is the rub, in the situations presented, a drunk girl who participated then in the middle of it, decided she didnt want it, then cried rape. She was deemed that being drunk removed her ability to consent and not responsible for her own actions. Poor guy, now a sex offender for life - because she regretted her actions.

Sort of like the movie "The Accused".

No, she wasn't totally naked after strip teasing and lap dancing an entire room full of all drunk men.

She was at the bar. She was drinking. Flirty. Tipsy. That means she reallllly wanted all of us to hold her down and rape her.

The movie conveyed the same message: She was asking for it.

Not the same. If the girl who regretted couldnt consent because of drunk, the drunk man who did his thing with the naked stripper in his lap couldnt be responsible for his actions either. He didnt rip off her clothes, she took them off for him. She was teasing him in his own lap while naked.

Sad you cant see the difference.

 

[Rusha]

No, she wasn't totally naked after strip teasing and lap dancing an entire room full of all drunk men.

So someone who is hired to strip at a bar, party, etc. should expect her night to end with being raped?

Does that mean those viewing the strippers should expect to have a bunch of biker chicks slip drugs into their drinks and rape them for being there?

How does this play out at the beach? Who is more responsible for getting raped? The gals who dare wear swimwear or the guys in the scimpy trunks?

 

[Angel4Truth]

So someone who is hired to strip at a bar, party, etc. should expect her night to end with being raped?

No, which is why they have bouncers there and rules for behavior while there and other people to look out for them who aren't drunk. We are talking about an unaccompanied women, stipping full naked, not partially, and engaging in allowing hands on her and her in laps that way with men all drunk . No safeguards.

Does that mean those viewing the strippers should expect to have a bunch of biker chicks slip drugs into their drinks and rape them for being there?

What part of, someone being drugged who didnt choose it, that i already responded to, as not being their fault, did you miss when i said it before?

How does this play out at the beach? Who is more responsible for getting raped? The gals who dare wear swimwear or the guys in the scimpy trunks?

Irrelevant to anything being discussed.

 

[Angel4Truth]

So ... a drunken women or a teen or woman who has a drug slipped into their beverage are the equivalent of someone "sitting outside unlocked for them to just take, put in harms way."?

I guess the same could be said of someone having diabetic reaction ...

Is a different situation then willfully getting smashed and regretting what happened the next day.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Im seeing a lot of piling on me, but no one responding to my concerns about having any personal accountability for ones own negligence and putting ones self in harms way deliberately.

We can pretend that ones own negligence or carelessness doesnt contribute to a great many things, but i know good and well anyone adult and alive knows better.

 

[Tambora]

Yep, there's that side.

Then we have the poor me victims.

All I did was spit in his face....he had no right.

No right to do what, decide to shoot you over it?
It is right to place any blame for your own irresponsibility on the irresponsibility of another?

All I did was sit naked on his lap.....he had no right.

No right to do what, decide to rape you over it?
It is right to place any blame for your own irresponsibility on the irresponsibility of another?

All I did was leave my kid sitting in a hot car....not my fault.

Not your fault for what, the kid being hot?
This is not a situation of one's irresponsibility being partially blamed on another person's irresponsibility.
In other words, there was no irresponsibility of the child that enticed the person to react irresponsibly; so I'm not seeing how it fits in with the other examples.

 

[ok doser]

Im seeing a lot of piling on me, but no one responding to my concerns about having any personal accountability for ones own negligence and putting ones self in harms way deliberately.

We can pretend that ones own negligence or carelessness doesnt contribute to a great many things, but i know good and well anyone adult and alive knows better.

you're raising uncomfortable questions

i raised a few myself: http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114246

 

[Angel4Truth]

you're raising uncomfortable questions

i raised a few myself: http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114246

I answered that yesterday in your other thread, yes, the father has responsibility in it, his own negligence/carelessness contributed, he knowingly put his children in harms way.

 

[kmoney]

give these a shot

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114246

First - the parent acted negligently and could get in trouble for putting a child at risk.

Second - the bank staff is responsible for putting the bank and its money at risk. They could/should be fired for negligence.

Third - Mary is responsible for putting herself in a situation in which she has little control and for acting in a way that might provoke men. But I don't know where anyone is supposed to go from there.

The 3 situations aren't quite the same though.
In 1, a child is involved who can't defend themselves and the person was a known pedophile. Children need guardians because they can't sufficiently understand all the dangers and protect themselves.
In 2, the responsibility and punishment would be coming from the employer, not the legal system. Also, it's not unreasonable to think that people will take money if they have the opportunity.

In 3, is the assumption that men will rape any drunk girl they meet (like the assumption is made on theft in 2)? Is the fraternity known to have assaulted women in the past (like the offender was known to have molested children in 1)?

What's the proposal for Mary? What practical difference does it make if the women was drunk at a frat party and got raped or if she got jumped while walking home from work and got raped?

 

[kmoney]

Im seeing a lot of piling on me, but no one responding to my concerns about having any personal accountability for ones own negligence and putting ones self in harms way deliberately.

We can pretend that ones own negligence or carelessness doesnt contribute to a great many things, but i know good and well anyone adult and alive knows better.

But what does that personal accountability of the women who got drunk and stripped at a frat party mean to you? Should she get in trouble? Does the rapist get a lesser punishment because he was provoked and tempted? What happens?

 

[ok doser]

I answered that yesterday in your other thread, yes, the father has responsibility in it, his own negligence/carelessness contributed, he knowingly put his children in harms way.

i added to it

 

[bybee]

But what does that personal accountability of the women who got drunk and stripped at a frat party mean to you? Should she get in trouble? Does the rapist get a lesser punishment because he was provoked and tempted? What happens?

Life is filled with provocation and temptation. It is in our response to such things that our measure is taken.