On Rape (the original statement)

[bybee]

Ok doser is trying to make the case that unless everyone else around you is acting responsible, then you can partially blame them for your own irresponsible actions.

In short, he wants to blame other people's irresponsibility for his own irresponsibility.

Exactly so! And, perhaps, even blame other people's irresponsibility for his own willful behavior?

 

[annabenedetti]

no, but i'll try again

what i am arguing is that everybody - whether perp or victim, whether we're discussing a rape or an assault or a robbery, should bear the responsibility for their actions, insofar as they were contributory to the crime

We're discussing rape. Stick with that, if you're able.

 

[Tambora]

I was taught "If it isn't yours, don't touch it!" "If you do not have permission, it isn't yours!"
You sound like a man advocating approval in taking advantage of someone not behaving responsibly?

BINGO!


It's the old .....

.... defense.
Bogus defense.

 

[ok doser]

By agreeing with her that the rapist bears "full responsibility"

the rapist bears full responsibility for the rape - just as the bank robbers in the scenario above bear full responsibility for the theft - both should be punished accordingly

and then going on to repeat again that the victim should bear responsibility...

for putting herself in a situation in which rape was likely - just like the bank managers and tellers in the scenario above put themselves in a situation where robbery was likely

the robbers get arrested for robbery
the bank managers and tellers get punished for their irresponsible behavior - not for theft

 

[Angel4Truth]

Exactly so! And, perhaps, even blame other people's irresponsibility for his own willful behavior?

If a person doesn't lock their doors and are drunk/passed out and have a small child who gets out - and that child gets kidnapped, does the person whose child it is, bear any part of the blame for what happened?

 

[Foxfire]

were the tellers and the managers in a drunken stupor with the door wide open, after spending the day waving bundles of bills at poor people?

And that exonerates the robbers that exploited the situation :idunno:

OH! Yea! Wallstreet.

 

[ok doser]

bybee - if the bank managers and tellers had spent the day drinking and waving budles of cash at poor people, and then all passed out with the bank doors wide open and people came in and walked off with the bundles of cash...

would you say that the bank managers and tellers bore any responsibility for the theft?

NO!

just.....

wow


remind me not to hire you as a bank manager

 

[Angel4Truth]

And that exonerates the robbers that exploited the situation :idunno:

Nope, but the employees still bear responsibility for their negligence.

 

[ok doser]

And that exonerates the robbers that exploited the situation :idunno:

nope - never said so

 

[Tambora]

no, but i'll try again

what i am arguing is that everybody - whether perp or victim, whether we're discussing a rape or an assault or a robbery, should bear the responsibility for their actions, insofar as they were contributory to the crime

What a moron!

The only one responsible for the rape is the rapist.
The only one responsible for the assault is the assaulter.
The only one responsible for theft is the thief.

Quit trying to blame others for your own lack of control.

 

[bybee]

If a person doesn't lock their doors and are drunk/passed out and have a small child who gets out - and that child gets kidnapped, does the person whose child it is, bear any part of the blame for what happened?

No! The person is guilty of poor parenting. The person is guilty of choosing to drink until drunk and unfit to parent.
All kinds of things happen even when parenting is exemplary.

 

[glorydaz]

I understand what is being discussed.
You are trying to lay some of the blame on the victim being raped, when the only one that is to be blamed for rape is the rapist.

All you are doing is perpetuating the search for loopholes for the perp to get away with raping the victim.

In every single instance of rape, the rapist is the only one guilty of rape.
Never the victim.

I'm thinking of a different "blame".

I don't think the victim shares in THE BLAME associated with the violence of the rape.

But, there is another additional blame that needs to be attributed, IN SOME INSTANCES, which does belong to the victim. Those are the consequences of one's BAD DECISIONS. It's the same fault we have when we put ourselves in any dangerous situation. The example I can't get away from is doing a strip tease at a frat party. No, it's not right if the girl gets raped, and the rapist is at fault for committing the rape, but the girl must bear some blame for getting raped. Not THE BLAME....but some.

As in most things, there is plenty of blame to go around.

 

[Rusha]

Wrong! Rape is a crime committed by a man who has decided it is okay to sexually force himself on another person.
The man alone bears responsibility for that decision.

*Sigh* It's rather telling that any other time a person is assaulted, the person doing the assault is seen as the sole aggressor and 100% responsible.

But in this case, because the victims are normally women, some need to look high and low for a way to shift the blame away from the rapist.

Rape is not about sex but rather an act of aggression and violence. It's about taking something by FORCE.

 

[annabenedetti]

the rapist bears full responsibility for the rape -


[the victim should bear responsibility... ] for putting herself in a situation in which rape was likely

Full = 100%

The rapist bears 100% responsibility for the rape.

There's no room in your agreement that the rapist bears full responsibility to assign any proportion of responsibility to the victim.

You're arguing a losing (and false) proposition no matter how you frame it.

 

[ok doser]

let me try this one - i'd like everybody's response to this before we continue:

A father leaves his children in the care of a known pedophile. The pedophile molests the children. I believe that everybody will agree that the pedophile is responsible for the crime of molestation. Does the father bear any responsibility for putting the children at risk?

I'd like to see Tam's, bybee's, anna's and foxfire's response to this before we go on.

 

[Angel4Truth]

No! The person is guilty of poor parenting. The person is guilty of choosing to drink until drunk and unfit to parent.
All kinds of things happen even when parenting is exemplary.

If that is so, why so some parents go to jail for their negligence when their child gets out and ends up in bad situations?

The law finds the parent guilty of negligence and child endangerment all the time in cases like that, so they are held to have had responsibility. Even in cases where the parent isnt drinking, but failed to properly supervise their child.

 

[Foxfire]

Nope, but the employees still bear responsibility for their negligence.

Quite true. I wouldn't be prone to doing any further business there.

But I still want the ROBBERS prosecuted for the crime.

 

[annabenedetti]

let me try this one - i'd like everybody's response to this before we continue:

A father leaves his children in the care of a known pedophile. The pedophile molests the children. I believe that everybody will agree that the pedophile is responsible for the crime of molestation. Does the father bear any responsibility for putting the children at risk?

I'd like to see Tam's, bybee's, anna's and foxfire's response to this before we go on.

You've tried it about ten times now, because you can't support your original assertion that a woman chooses to be violated against her will.

 

[glorydaz]

My bank got robbed last week. It was the banks fault for being in a highly visible and accessible location. lain:

Logical fallacy.

They should have had better security.

 

[Angel4Truth]

I'm thinking of a different "blame".

I don't think the victim shares in THE BLAME associated with the violence of the rape.

But, there is another additional blame that needs to be attributed, IN SOME INSTANCES, which does belong to the victim. Those are the consequences of one's BAD DECISIONS. It's the same fault we have when we put ourselves in any dangerous situation. The example I can't get away from is doing a strip tease at a frat party. No, it's not right if the girl gets raped, and the rapist is at fault for committing the rape, but the girl must bear some blame for getting raped. Not THE BLAME....but some.

As in most things, there is plenty of blame to go around.

:thumb: well said, my sentiments exactly.