ECT Obey the Gospel

[Jacob]

Wrong. The purpose of the law remains. It was given to show men their guilt and lead them to Christ through faith. The moral laws included in the Ten commandments are written in the conscience of all men. I don't know how Rosenritten explains how we are to get rid of those.

It's easy to toss up a bunch of verses and try to make them say what they were never meant to say. It is actually a matter of administration...being under the law or under the Spirit.

Do not be deceived, Jacob, by this false teacher.

Interesting statements you have.

 

[Jacob]

I believe you have.

But obviously, that was not enough.

Notice...

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Both chapters are speaking within the same narrative...the wrath to come upon those who believed not the gospel of Christ.

And both chapters are speaking of how that those who did believe the truth will escape said wrath to come...

What truth?

Ask - the - Scripture - notice that both chapters answer that as well...

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Still not convinced?

Go back a book to...

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

As to what you three were exploring when you allowed yourselves to be thrown by Paul's use of the word "obey" as if it only has one meaning in Scripture, the obey you three were attempting to sort out is a function of one's day to day State being allowed to be impacted by the Word, in light of one's eternal, and once for all Standing, in Christ.

Which is what Paul's "the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe" is referring to AFTER one has believed the gospel.

In other words, this here...

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

That comes AFTER one has believed the Word of God.

God is then able to work effectively in you that have believed His Word, He is able to effectually work or motivate obedience in the Believer through His Word, as the Believer learns in and through His Word all about God's wondrous Son's FINISHED work on the Cross, in each...our stead.

This is Grace Motivation - the principle of doing a thing out of Gratitude, thus, Paul's use not only of the wording "both to will" or want to "and to do" - but also, of the wording - "of HIS GOOD PLEASURE."

This principle of service out of a gratitude towards God for His Son that time in the Word He communicated in written form by His Spirit to and through its writers, is meant to result in, in the Believer, and is a constant in Paul's writings, though he is not alone in his advocating of it.

Here it is in the following, for example...

1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

In stark contrast to that, the "obey" of 2 Thessalonians 1, refers simply, to believing the gospel of our salvation, to begin with.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Very good. Thank you.

 

[Rosenritter]

Are you saying that salvation is about belief but not obedience?

"Belief" is a word that has suffered much abuse. There is fake belief, false belief, and faithless belief and I mean none of those. James addresses this with an example that demonstrates that this same misuse of the word is not limited to our English language.

James 2:19 KJV
(19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The "belief" of salvation is in the context of faith and obedience and love and these are not separable. It would be like saying you had "blood" without plasma or blood cells. A true faith includes a living belief, and a living belief is evidenced by love and obedience, these are works of faith. If someone says that they "believe" but they do not act on that belief and their actions defy the claimed belief do they really believe?

So let's go to proof of salvation. There's a parable that deals specifically with this, the parable of the sheep and the goats. Of those who were judged as goats for destruction by fire, they were not judged for "not believing" a set of intellectual facts. They were judged against because their actions were not of love for their neighbor.

Matthew 25:41-45 KJV
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
(43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
(44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
(45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

 

[Jacob]

"Belief" is a word that has suffered much abuse. There is fake belief, false belief, and faithless belief and I mean none of those. James addresses this with an example that demonstrates that this same misuse of the word is not limited to our English language.

James 2:19 KJV
(19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The "belief" of salvation is in the context of faith and obedience and love and these are not separable. It would be like saying you had "blood" without plasma or blood cells. A true faith includes a living belief, and a living belief is evidenced by love and obedience, these are works of faith. If someone says that they "believe" but they do not act on that belief and their actions defy the claimed belief do they really believe?

So let's go to proof of salvation. There's a parable that deals specifically with this, the parable of the sheep and the goats. Of those who were judged as goats for destruction by fire, they were not judged for "not believing" a set of intellectual facts. They were judged against because their actions were not of love for their neighbor.

Matthew 25:41-45 KJV
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
(43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
(44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
(45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

I believe that you might be willing to agree that obedience is an evidence of salvation.

 

[way 2 go]

Are you saying that salvation is about belief but not obedience?

Gen 15:5 And he brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

then came circumcision
and then the law
...
Jesus died Israel did not repent and was cut off (& with Jesus death no more animal sacrifice)

Jesus turned to Paul & the gentiles

and here we are now ,
we are back to no circumcision and not under law but have the spirit of God instead

Rom 4:1 What then shall we say that our father Abraham has found, according to flesh?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has a boast; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness."
Rom 4:4 But to him working, the reward is not reckoned according to grace, but according to debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom_7:6 But now we having been set free from the Law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 

[Jacob]

Gen 15:5 And he brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

then came circumcision
and then the law
...
Jesus died Israel did not repent and was cut off (& with Jesus death no more animal sacrifice)

Jesus turned to Paul & the gentiles

and here we are now ,
we are back to no circumcision and not under law but have the spirit of God instead

Rom 4:1 What then shall we say that our father Abraham has found, according to flesh?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has a boast; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness."
Rom 4:4 But to him working, the reward is not reckoned according to grace, but according to debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom_7:6 But now we having been set free from the Law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

I am all about the Spirit of God and obedience, but to God's commands or commandments.

 

[Rosenritter]

I believe that you might be willing to agree that obedience is an evidence of salvation.

1 Peter 2:7-8 KJV
(7) Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
(8) And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Peter contrasts "you therefore which believe" with "them which be disobedient" and Paul says that the "unbelieving" are those which "profess they know God; but in works they deny him... being "disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

Titus 1:15-16 KJV
(15) Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
(16) They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

So I would say that the interpretation of Paul and Peter agree: unbelief is evidenced by disobedience; whereas belief is evidenced by good works and obedience unto righteousness.

Romans 6:14-16 KJV
(14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
(15) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
(16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Spoiler

2 Corinthians 10:5-6 KJV
(5) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
(6) And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

If there is confusion on this topic, I think it arises from the discernment of God's intent and commandments.

 

[Rosenritter]

Wrong. The purpose of the law remains. It was given to show men their guilt and lead them to Christ through faith. The moral laws included in the Ten commandments are written in the conscience of all men. I don't know how Rosenritten explains how we are to get rid of those.

It's easy to toss up a bunch of verses and try to make them say what they were never meant to say. It is actually a matter of administration...being under the law or under the Spirit.

Do not be deceived, Jacob, by this false teacher.

[sarcasm]Because we all know there is no more sure path to hell than to Love the Lord and obey his commandment to Love One Another.[/sarcasm]

 

[john w]

1 Peter 2:7-8 KJV
(7) Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
(8) And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Peter contrasts "you therefore which believe" with "them which be disobedient" and Paul says that the "unbelieving" are those which "profess they know God; but in works they deny him... being "disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

Titus 1:15-16 KJV
(15) Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
(16) They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

So I would say that the interpretation of Paul and Peter agree: unbelief is evidenced by disobedience; whereas belief is evidenced by good works and obedience unto righteousness.

Romans 6:14-16 KJV
(14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
(15) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
(16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Spoiler

2 Corinthians 10:5-6 KJV
(5) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
(6) And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

If there is confusion on this topic, I think it arises from the discernment of God's intent and commandments.

How much obedience,corrupt interpretor?

Not a peep, from another perverter.

 

[john w]

1 Peter 2:7-8 KJV
(7) Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
(8) And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Peter ....

Thief, robber, stealing messages, that are not directed to you, and their promises, all the while dismissing the curses, penalty, for disobedience:

1 Peter KJV

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:...

 

[glorydaz]

[sarcasm]Because we all know there is no more sure path to hell than to Love the Lord and obey his commandment to Love One Another.[/sarcasm]

Your sarcasm is duly noted, and ever present even without the notation.

Unfortunately, you don't believe Paul when he tells us righteousness does not come from the law. Do you think love is not righteous? Love does not come from the commandment.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.​

(One minute you preach the law is abolished, and the next you frustrate the grace of God by these foolish statements.)

All love comes from God. The fruit of the Spirit is love.... "Fruits of the flesh" do not produce love.

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.​

We cannot OBEY the commandment to love since the commandments ONLY direct us to faith in the Lord. The POWER to obey does not come from the commandment. That is what you REFUSE to understand.

Then through faith the commandment is fulfilled IN US. NOT BY US.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.​

 

[glorydaz]

1 Peter 2:7-8 KJV
(7) Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
(8) And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Peter contrasts "you therefore which believe" with "them which be disobedient" and Paul says that the "unbelieving" are those which "profess they know God; but in works they deny him... being "disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

Titus 1:15-16 KJV
(15) Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
(16) They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

So I would say that the interpretation of Paul and Peter agree: unbelief is evidenced by disobedience; whereas belief is evidenced by good works and obedience unto righteousness.

Romans 6:14-16 KJV
(14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
(15) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
(16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Spoiler

2 Corinthians 10:5-6 KJV
(5) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
(6) And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

If there is confusion on this topic, I think it arises from the discernment of God's intent and commandments.

Big difference. One is obedience to the commandments, and the other is the obedience of faith. One if of the flesh, and the other is of the Spirit.

 

[Jacob]

1 Peter 2:7-8 KJV
(7) Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
(8) And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Peter contrasts "you therefore which believe" with "them which be disobedient" and Paul says that the "unbelieving" are those which "profess they know God; but in works they deny him... being "disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

Titus 1:15-16 KJV
(15) Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
(16) They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

So I would say that the interpretation of Paul and Peter agree: unbelief is evidenced by disobedience; whereas belief is evidenced by good works and obedience unto righteousness.

Romans 6:14-16 KJV
(14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
(15) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
(16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Spoiler

2 Corinthians 10:5-6 KJV
(5) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
(6) And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

If there is confusion on this topic, I think it arises from the discernment of God's intent and commandments.

Certainly understanding God's commandments does not create confusion. I do not know what you are confused about if anything.

 

[way 2 go]

I am all about the Spirit of God and obedience, but to God's commands or commandments.

so you walk according to the flesh ?

please interpret these 2 verses

1. Rom_7:6 But now we having been set free from the Law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

2. Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

 

[Jacob]

so you walk according to the flesh ?

no

please interpret these 2 verses

1. Rom_7:6 But now we having been set free from the Law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

We have died to the Law in which we were held and serve in the newness of the spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

2. Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

There is no condemnation for us (for all of those) who are in Christ Jesus who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

 

[way 2 go]

no

We have died to the Law in which we were held and serve in the newness of the spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

so you understand we have died to the law like this :

Rom 7:2 For the married woman was bound by law to the living husband. But if the husband is dead, she is set free from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband lives, she is married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress. But if the husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is no adulteress by becoming another man's wife.

would you say with Christ we have diplomatic immunity when it comes to the law ?

There is no condemnation for us (for all of those) who are in Christ Jesus who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

I am all about the Spirit of God and obedience, but to God's commands or commandments.

if the commandments says do not lust and you lust that is a work of the flesh
but if you strive in your flesh to not lust it is not fruit of the spirit , is it , do you agree ?

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Let it not be said! But I did not know sin except through the law. For also I did not know lust except the law said, You shall not lust.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, worked in me all kinds of lust. For apart from law sin was dead.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are clearly revealed, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lustfulness,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, fightings, jealousies, angers, rivalries, divisions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revelings, and things like these; of which I tell you before, as I also said before, that they who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.



Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 meekness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

 

[Jacob]

so you understand we have died to the law like this :

Rom 7:2 For the married woman was bound by law to the living husband. But if the husband is dead, she is set free from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband lives, she is married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress. But if the husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is no adulteress by becoming another man's wife.

would you say with Christ we have diplomatic immunity when it comes to the law ?

No.

if the commandments says do not lust and you lust that is a work of the flesh

No

but if you strive in your flesh to not lust it is not fruit of the spirit , is it , do you agree ?

Interesting. A work of the flesh is of the flesh not the Spirit. The Spirit never disagrees with the Word of God, any of it.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Let it not be said! But I did not know sin except through the law. For also I did not know lust except the law said, You shall not lust.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, worked in me all kinds of lust. For apart from law sin was dead.

Very good.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are clearly revealed, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lustfulness,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, fightings, jealousies, angers, rivalries, divisions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revelings, and things like these; of which I tell you before, as I also said before, that they who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.



Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 meekness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Very good.

I don't mean to be trite or act like I am teaching you. You do seem to be appealing to me.

 

[glorydaz]

We have died to the Law in which we were held and serve in the newness of the spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

.

Serve? What do you mean?

 

[Jacob]

Serve? What do you mean?

We serve our God and King, Father and Son, and the Members of the Body of Christ, and those outside of the Church.

 

[musterion]

I am all about the Spirit of God and obedience, but to God's commands or commandments.

Where are these commandments listed, so all may know that they're talking about the same thing.