I've been away for a while and have just read through what has been posted over the 36 hours or so and I have to say that I'm truly disgusted. Not surprised, but very disgusted.
I am particularly disappointed with Mateo, although I'm not really sure why. I mean, I don't even consider Mateo to be a Christian, so I don't suppose that I should expect anything other than a typical understanding of Christianity from him. Never the less, he has shown in the past an ability to put two consecutive thoughts together without assuming connections that aren't there. In this case however, Mateo has shown less ability to understand the issues involved here than has Freak. Which is hard to even conceive, but there it is.
With that having been said, I think that there is very little else to be said on my part. I understand the reaction both of the homos and homo lovers as well as that of the Christians on this thread.
The reaction from the homos is expected and desired. In fact, I dare say that the thread was far more successful than I could have imagined. Bob is truly brilliant! I doubt very seriously that anything I could have written on my own could have engendered such a response.
The response from the Christians is also quite understandable because of the pervasive amount of near total ignorance in the church today. The vast majority of Christians know very little more than, "I deserve hell but am saved by Grace through faith in Jesus Christ." Acknowledgement of this is very simple idea is the very first step in a Christians walk with the Lord and most never progress very far past this. American Christians in particular, are very lazy and want everything spoon fed and just simply aren't willing to do the work involved in understand what it means to rest in the finished work of Jesus Christ. Christianity is very simple but it not easy. There were of course obvious exceptions and they know who they are, but for the most part the Christians here have proven to be very disappointingly typical.
So, in closing I should like to sum up once more my position on the issues that have been discussed here and then I think I'll sit back and watch for a while. As much as I would like to stay actively involved on the thread, I don't think my schedule will allow the level of participation that was required a couple of days ago. Knight, you should check to see if this thread broke any records for most posts accumulated in the shortest amount of time! When I started it, I got nothing for a day or two and then BOOM! this sucker exploded! :noway:
Any way...
I believe that the central point of Bob's article is summed up in the following two quotes from the article...
"A harsh style is difficult for more sensitive Christians to appreciate. However the biblical approach to communicating with the world includes not only compassion, but harshness as well."
and...
"God uses different methods to communicate the Gospel to people at different depths of depravity. At times, a Christian can pray with an unbeliever. At other times, a believer might ridicule the unrepentant in hopes of waking him up. Painful communication though is in no way reserved just for non-Christians."
I find it interesting that almost no one would disagree with either of these statements when taken by themselves. It's only when they are put into practice that everybody gets their underwear all knotted up.
I also find it interesting that many Christians have a big problem with me for harshly attacking a criminal, but have no problem at all with harshly attacking me for have done so. :think:
With that having been said, let me clarify what I believe about some of the specific things that have come up on this thread.
God considers the following things to be capital crimes (this will not be a complete list and is in no particular order).
Homosexuality
Child Molestation
Bestiality
Incest
Adultery
Murder
Kidnapping
The only one of these that this country considers a capital crime is murder but even that is not consistently enforced. In short, the criminal justice system in this country is almost totally unjust.
Ezekiel 13:19 "And will you profane Me among My people..., killing people who should not die, and keeping people alive who should not live...?"
However, we do not have the authority from God to take the law into our own hands! If anyone takes the life of anyone else, including homos, without due process of law, except when protecting themselves or their family, then they have committed murder and should be executed.
So, while I do believe that the execution of homos (and murders and the rest) should be the law of the land, I do not advocate the killing or beating of homos until such time as it becomes the law and then only upon conviction. (Unless they touch one of your kids, then beat them unconscious and wear your jail time as a badge of honor!
).
However, just because our idiot government doesn't uphold justice, doesn't mean that homo's and adulterers, etc. are not criminals. They are criminals and should be treated as such to whatever extent it is within our power to do so. Why? Well, because that's what they are, criminals! The only reason any one doesn't already treat them as such is because our laws are unjust.
This is why the recriminalization of such behaviors is the most critical tactic that can be used in the fight against immorality. The law teaches a society what is right and wrong (or it does if the law is just). If the society believes something is wrong then the second tactic will automatically be in place, that being a social stigma. With the law being unjust, the best thing we can do to hold back the tide of immorality and perversion is to create this social stigma intentionally. Doing so would put back into place at least some of the deterrent that is absent without the threat of a painful execution. And then, of course there is a place for a gentler attitude when one finds a criminal who is willing to admit his crime and repent. My point on this thread was to say among other things that most of all Christianity attempts to work these three tactics in the reverse order and the result is, of course, a dismal failure which is self evident in our society.
And finally, I would just like to say to those of you who decided it was appropriate to slander both me and Bob Enyart, I do not forgive you nor will I unless you repent. I will relish the opportunity to add to the testimony given against you on the day of judgment.
Well, that's plenty for now. I think I covered most everything that I want to. If I think of something else that needs said, I'll weigh in again but for now, as Bob would say...
Do right and risk the consequences!
Resting in Him,
Clete
