Nicer than God!

[Clete]

Originally posted by beanieboy

So, we would would stone disobedient children?

The Bible does not teach this you stupid filthy idiot! If it did, I would not hesitate to advocate it, however. What God calls a crime is a crime period, I don't have to understand or agree, just obey. But God does not command the execution of simply disobedient children.
And before you go quoting the Bible again I know what you are refering to. Suffice it to say that you don't understand it and I will not explain it to you.

 

[beanieboy]

The bible does call for the execution of children who continually do not obey their parents.

18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.


I don't understand it, no.
And can't imagine anyone killing their son, grown or not.

The bible is full of death penalty.
Non-virgin brides, for example.

But, I'm Nicer than God. Whaddya going to do.

Amaste.

 

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

The Bible does not teach this you stupid filthy idiot! If it did, I would not hesitate to advocate it, however. What God calls a crime is a crime period, I don't have to understand or agree, just obey. But God does not command the execution of simply disobedient children.
And before you go quoting the Bible again I know what you are refering to. Suffice it to say that you don't understand it and I will not explain it to you.

Will you explain it to me?

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by beanieboy

Am I wrong on this?

Yes.

I got it from another web site.
I'm unsure, actually.

Then you shouldn't have repeated it.

You are excited for judgement day?
You can't wait to see the evil ones tortured?

Interesting.

The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance; He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked, Psalm 58:10

 

[Servo]

Originally posted by Nietzschean

Not at all.
But the fact remains that you did use it out of context. That's all I alleged.

:nono: :kookoo:

 

[Servo]

Originally posted by beanieboy

Is the sin of not believing in Jesus enough to go to hell?
Isn't that "equal"?

So, why is it not a crime?

I already explained that.

Originally posted by beanieboy Enyart, by the way, believes in killing all the atheists.

I see Clete and Turbo already covered this. Enyart does NOT believe that. That was a stupid statement.

 

[Chileice]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Why did you only read the second half of the post?
The first quote from Rom. 1 says explicitly that is God's judgment that homo's, adulterers etc. deserve death!
It is not for us to decide! God has decided for us. He as said that you shall surely be put to death if you're a homo not me and far be it from me to argue with God.

Resting in Him,
Clete

If you continue to read Paul's argument (which runs through the end of Chapter 3) you will see that we ALL deserve death. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. But now, apart from the law, we are made righteous by our union through faith with Christ Jesus. Further in the same book, chapter 6 to be exact, we see this:

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19 I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

WE ALLLLL DESERVE DEATH. DESERVE it! But the beauty of the Gospel is we don't have to face it if we are in Christ Jesus. Look, we as Christians should be concerned to follow Christ and not live as slaves to sin. We have freedom and a choice. Why are you expecting people who are slaves to sin to live like they were Christians??!! Clete, It is YOU that doesn't get it. You are trying to force the Christian life on people who reject Christ. Not even Paul himself did that. When we were slaves to sin we were free from the law of righteousness all right but we were headed toward things that brought us pain and shame. Sin has its own reward. Neither you nor are are the rewarders of sinners. We should be worried about the logs in our own eyes and not all the specks we see floating in everyone else´s.

I can't believe how far this forum has come in just a few hours. I do hope you read the other verses I posted several pages back (page 9, I think) and have reflected on them. I know that you think because everyone is against you it proves you are "suffering for Christ", but in this case, you are suffering for having not opened your heart to the Bible. I hope some day you will soften your heart and share your journey with others.
Blessings.

 

[beanieboy]

Originally posted by Turbo

Yes.
Then you shouldn't have repeated it.


The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance; He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked, Psalm 58:10

David also writes:
"Blessed are they that smash their little ones against the rocks."

Is that "loving your enemies"?

What confuses me about your love of the Vengeful God is that it doesn't make sense to me.
John 3:16 says, "for God so loved the world..." That he loved the world even while they were sinners.

 

[beanieboy]

I'm going to address this in a different way.

Freak, how to you lead one to Christ?
What is your process?
How do you show love to a sinner?

Or do you think loving a sinner is wrong?

 

[beanieboy]

btw, I believe that I was wrong about the death to atheists and Enyart.

I was wrong.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

You stupid idiotic fool! Do you suppose God would disagree with such a statement?

Clete, Jesus would say to you:

Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

You're void of truth because you deny God's Word and the revelation of the Lord Jesus.

You make me want to vomit!

Since your a enemy of God's, that would not surprise me.

Are you proud of yourself? You have joined sides with self proclaimed homo's and they like you for it!

The side I have chosen is Jesus. You have chosen Enyart and plot materials. You're a pathetic weasel.

How does it feel to get accolades from gutter slime homo's in your statements against Christians?

You dead monkey, wake up!!!! Jesus loves all and desires all to come to repentance. He doesn't hate homosexuals, He loves them!

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

You are simply the worst and most destructive example of a Christian I have ever come across.

Like I care what a demonized fake believer calls me.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Stop resting in Satan and rest in the eternal arms of Jesus.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by beanieboy

I'm going to address this in a different way.

Freak, how to you lead one to Christ?
What is your process?
How do you show love to a sinner?

Or do you think loving a sinner is wrong?

Jesus Christ mirrored the way we ought to reach sinners....He loved them, He reached out to them, He bestowed mercy & grace. Warn them of eternal hell but exhort them to reach out to God through faith in His Son-Jesus!

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

 

[beanieboy]

Do mind if I continue to ask you?

You see a guy with, I don't know, a Barbra Steisand Album, and you ask him about it and he says, "well, I am gay, after all."

And then you do what?

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Chileice

If you continue to read Paul's argument (which runs through the end of Chapter 3) you will see that we ALL deserve death. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. But now, apart from the law, we are made righteous by our union through faith with Christ Jesus. Further in the same book, chapter 6 to be exact, we see this:

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19 I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

WE ALLLLL DESERVE DEATH. DESERVE it! But the beauty of the Gospel is we don't have to face it if we are in Christ Jesus. Look, we as Christians should be concerned to follow Christ and not live as slaves to sin. We have freedom and a choice. Why are you expecting people who are slaves to sin to live like they were Christians??!! Clete, It is YOU that doesn't get it. You are trying to force the Christian life on people who reject Christ. Not even Paul himself did that. When we were slaves to sin we were free from the law of righteousness all right but we were headed toward things that brought us pain and shame. Sin has its own reward. Neither you nor are are the rewarders of sinners. We should be worried about the logs in our own eyes and not all the specks we see floating in everyone else´s.

I can't believe how far this forum has come in just a few hours. I do hope you read the other verses I posted several pages back (page 9, I think) and have reflected on them. I know that you think because everyone is against you it proves you are "suffering for Christ", but in this case, you are suffering for having not opened your heart to the Bible. I hope some day you will soften your heart and share your journey with others.
Blessings.

You are not talking about the same subject I am. I do not dispute grace and neither does Enyart, in fact I learned it from Enyart!
You are misunderstanding the entire point and reading more into what I and Enyart are saying that is there. Try reading the article again and don't think of it as an interpretation of the gospel message but more as a commentary on how the church has taken itself out of the game on social issues and weakened its ability to impact the society because Christians are afraid to hurt somebody’s feeling and afraid to agree with what God in His condemnation of murderers and other criminals. In short they are nicer than God.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by beanieboy

Do mind if I continue to ask you?

You see a guy with, I don't know, a Barbra Steisand Album, and you ask him about it and he says, "well, I am gay, after all."

And then you do what?

Try not to vomit!

 

[Lovejoy]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

You are not talking about the same subject I am. I do not dispute grace and neither does Enyart, in fact I learned it from Enyart!
You are misunderstanding the entire point and reading more into what I and Enyart are saying that is there. Try reading the article again and don't think of it as an interpretation of the gospel message but more as a commentary on how the church has taken itself out of the game on social issues and weakened its ability to impact the society because Christians are afraid to hurt somebody’s feeling and afraid to agree with what God in His condemnation of murderers and other criminals. In short they are nicer than God.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I assumed it was something like that. My personal problem with Christians trying that sort of thing is that every time someone decided to wield that kind of power in connection to the church (the Romans, the Holy Roman Empire, the Roman Catholic Church, a lot of romans), a great apostacy followed. People come to Christ freely, or not at all. I guarantee that if we start screaming for blood, it will be not at all. The early church was honored as a group of people "among whom do evil was done" and eventually took over the Roman Empire through that rep. Of course, then the romans rammed Christ down everyones throat, and eveything went to hell in a handbasket. In the US, we have a constituition that prevents that sort of thing, and a huge advantage in numbers. IF WE COULD JUST KEEP OUR CHURCHES IN LINE (you know who you are), we might actually gather a few souls. First thing first, we have to not be among the murderers, rapists, and tax cheats.

Personally, I don't give a rip about society or culture or any of that stuff. Does anyone actually believe that culture is going with us?

I don't think we are that far off from agreeing on something, but we are not there yet. Mostly policy issues, and one or two deeply embedded beliefs. Keep talking, and I will respond.

 

[Duder]

You are not talking about the same subject I am. I do not dispute grace and neither does Enyart, in fact I learned it from Enyart!

Perhaps you should re-evaluate the extent to which the "grace" of Mr. Enyart originates in the Gospel message of Jesus.

You are misunderstanding the entire point and reading more into what I and Enyart are saying that is there. Try reading the article again and don't think of it as an interpretation of the gospel but more as a commentary on how the church has taken itself out of the game on social issues . . .

Oops - my bad. The article's ideas do not pretend to originate in the Gospel.

. . . Christians are afraid to hurt somebody’s feeling and afraid to agree with what God in His condemnation of murderers and other criminals. In short they are nicer than God.

I would tend to agree if you just added, "nicer than the god of my imagination."

 

[Mateo]

I don't suppose it would be instructive to point out that Jesus is not recorded as having belittled one single Homosexual during His entire life and shamed the men who brought an adulteress before Him for stoning BEFORE forgiving her.

:think:

 

[Chileice]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

You are not talking about the same subject I am. I do not dispute grace and neither does Enyart, in fact I learned it from Enyart!
You are misunderstanding the entire point and reading more into what I and Enyart are saying that is there. Try reading the article again and don't think of it as an interpretation of the gospel message but more as a commentary on how the church has taken itself out of the game on social issues and weakened its ability to impact the society because Christians are afraid to hurt somebody’s feeling and afraid to agree with what God in His condemnation of murderers and other criminals. In short they are nicer than God.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I have read the article through twice and don't feel like reading it again. As you can see, I prefer to go to the source... which is the Bible for me. I understand your point about the church being "soft on sin". But one can take a stand against sin and still be for the people we are trying to bring into Christ's kingdom. I guess we have radically different ideas of how best to present Christ to a lost world.

I'm not against getting in someone's face once in a while if we already have a relationship going and I know the person will respond in a way that is positive. However, I will never be for hating random sinners in the name of Christ and calling it the loving thing to do. It is cowardly and a way to avoid mixing with the very people Jesus spent large amounts of time with.

I don't know how we could ever PROVE which way works best. I do know that many people have come to faith in Christ through my relationship with them... wanting what I have in Christ, not responding to some rant about their sin. I still call sin sin. I talk about their sins and mine and the need for redemption. But I look at our job as II Cor. 5 points out as ambassadors for Christ. If the "ambassador" who shared Christ with me had been as ugly about me as a teenage sinner as the writer of the article purports we should be, I would probably be lost as an aligator in a blizzard.

I came to Christ because I understood I was a sinner through the passage about Achan in Joshua. Not exactly evangelism material. But it was presented in such a way that I realized I was loved and that there was a remedy for my sin. It was Jesus, not prison or flogging or the death penalty. Please consider what I say. I know I am probably just wasting time imaging anyone could be influenced by this, but I guess it is that hope that keeps me typing. I will try to leave my comments on this subject right here. I think I've just about said all I could to make my point. I hope you see it, Clete.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Lovejoy

I assumed it was something like that. My personal problem with Christians trying that sort of thing is that every time someone decided to wield that kind of power in connection to the church (the Romans, the Holy Roman Empire, the Roman Catholic Church, a lot of romans), a great apostacy followed. People come to Christ freely, or not at all. I guarantee that if we start screaming for blood, it will be not at all. The early church was honored as a group of people "among whom do evil was done" and eventually took over the Roman Empire through that rep. Of course, then the romans rammed Christ down everyones throat, and eveything went to hell in a handbasket. In the US, we have a constituition that prevents that sort of thing, and a huge advantage in numbers. IF WE COULD JUST KEEP OUR CHURCHES IN LINE (you know who you are), we might actually gather a few souls. First thing first, we have to not be among the murderers, rapists, and tax cheats.

Personally, I don't give a rip about society or culture or any of that stuff. Does anyone actually believe that culture is going with us?

I don't think we are that far off from agreeing on something, but we are not there yet. Mostly policy issues, and one or two deeply embedded beliefs. Keep talking, and I will respond.

Who is saying anything about cramming Jesus down anyone throat? Or calling for blood if someone doesn't believe? How do you guys keep missing the entire point! I am not talking about a typical person! I am talking about people whom God Himself calls perverts and criminals. People who God says to execute upon conviction of the crime which they themselves are proud of committing!
When someone is a pervert it does no one any good to do anything but to make certain that they know that their behavior is repugnant both to you and to God. And by the way, there is no requirement to throw in every detail of the gospel message every time you bring up their perversion. Sometimes it is far more effective to be as offensive as possible and let the offense do it ministry. Their soul is not your responsibility, especially when it concerns criminal behavior. Criminal behavior, if tolerated, is condoned and encouraged. It is therefore sinful and destructive to tolerate homos, murderers, adulterers and the like. They absolutely should not be tolerated in any sense, they should be executed! And if that is not an option then they should shunned and stigmatized so that they behavior will not spread into your community and into your very home.

Resting in Him,
Clete