Nicer than God!

[Clete]

Lovejoy,

Your posts are thoughtful and somewhat encouraging, although I feel that you are close to danger in that you seem to put a lot of credence into what your heart tells you.
You haven't said a lot, so I could very easily be wrong on this, but just in case, allow me to warn you against do so.
The heart of man is exceedingly deceptive and evil. We are not to do as our heart tells us! Instead, it is our responsibility to find out what IS right, and do that! You are definitely on the right track as far as your development of a relationship with God but that cannot be done on any other foundation other than that which has already been laid which is Christ Jesus, and Him crucified, as told to us by Holy Scripture.
God bless!

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Lovejoy]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Lovejoy,

Your posts are thoughtful and somewhat encouraging, although I feel that you are close to danger in that you seem to put a lot of credence into what your heart tells you.
You haven't said a lot, so I could very easily be wrong on this, but just in case, allow me to warn you against do so.
The heart of man is exceedingly deceptive and evil. We are not to do as our heart tells us! Instead, it is our responsibility to find out what IS right, and do that! You are definitely on the right track as far as your development of a relationship with God but that cannot be done on any other foundation other than that which has already been laid which is Christ Jesus, and Him crucified, as told to us by Holy Scripture.
God bless!

Resting in Him,
Clete

The word "heart" was misleading, Clete. I did not know how to explain that part of myself consecrated in Christ and led by the Holy Spirit. No, I do not use my heart in the fleshy sense. To be perfectly honest, even when I am posting I am listening to the bible on tape. I will never add or take away! My gripe is that so many doctrines we follow are already based on additions or convenient subtractions. As well, I fear subjective enforcement of particulars without careful, and heartfelt (theres that word again) consideration of the overall theme of Christs love. Thanks for the accountability, it is always welcome.

Psalm 38:7-10

Behold, I come; in the scroll of the book it is written for me. I delight to do Your will, Oh my God; Your law is within my heart.
I have proclaimed glad tidings of righteousness in the great congregation; Behold, I will not restrain my lips, oh Lord, You know. I have not hidden Your righteousness within my heart, I have spoken of Your faithfulness and Your salvation; I have not concealed Your lovingkindness and Your truth from the great congregation.

 

[Duder]

Your posts are thoughtful and somewhat encouraging, although I feel that you are close to danger in that you seem to put a lot of credence into what your heart tells you.

Dear Brandon,

Dutch-uncle time.

First, Clete does not have a clue about me. He doesn't know who I am, he doesn't know what I love, he doesn't know what I want. Clete has no choice but to cast me in the worst possible light. He is incapable of doing otherwise. He cannot help himself. Because if it turns out there is one shred of decency in me, one little spark of grace, one chance in a million that I am actually the disciple of the Nazerene Master, then there is some small chance that Clete is mistaken about some things. And that is a possibility too horrible for Clete to contemplate.

I've said many, many times on the board that I am not a Christian. Roll that word around on your tongue for a minute - just get the taste of it. "Kuh-RIS-chun". Briefly, let every though of what the word means fall silent and focus on the sound of it.

Kuh-RIS-chun. Kuh-RIS-chun

That sound is a vibration in the air - that is all. "Kuh-RIS-chun"

Now, the point I want to make is that I am not a vibration in the air. I and kuh-RIS-chun are not the same thing. So if I tell you that I am not a Christian you must not attach any more signifigance to this statement than that. If I said "I am a kuh-RIS-chun" you would still not have any more information about what I am, because kuh-RIS-chun is a vibration in the air, and not the essence of a person or a Person.

When people make this vibration in the air it tends to trigger ideas in the minds of others who hear it. It causes all kinds of associations and habitual patterns of thought. The problem is, it does not trigger the same thoughts in every person who hears it. It means different things to different people. So I have gone out of my way to make the point that "I am not a Christian" - because when you hear the word "Christian", the thoughts that go through your brain may be very different that the thoughts I mean by the word "Christian".

In denying that I'm a Christian I am playing a game similar to the one where I say I'm an honorary homosexual. I am making a purposeful exaggeration to get a point across. And the reason I do it is because I don't want people to focus on any label I hang on myself - I would rather they decide what I am based on what I share.

So let me just add my voice to Clete's and reaffirm once again that I am not a Christian. I thank him for reminding you of that.

Now - on to the main point I wanted to make. When you first accepted Jesus Christ, where did He tough you in the strongest way? Was it in your brain? I mean, did you start thinking a different kind of logical thoughts as the result of having accepted Jesus?

Or was it instead in your heart? Did you begin to feel things differently - did you intuit the world from a new center? If your experience is anything like mine, then it is primarily in the heart.. This is where you know - not in rational-linguistic propositions but in the direct tough of the indwelling God. Minds are very good servants, but they are terrible masters.

Be very wary when someone instructs you to put distance between yourself and your heart. The heart that is occupied by Jesus Christ will not lead you far astray. But a head full of ideas get you into the worst trouble. Re-read Clete's points above, pray about it, and consult with your heart. That's where God talks to you. He doesn't leave you Emails.

Matt

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Lovejoy

The word "heart" was misleading, Clete. I did not know how to explain that part of myself consecrated in Christ and led by the Holy Spirit. No, I do not use my heart in the fleshy sense. To be perfectly honest, even when I am posting I am listening to the bible on tape. I will never add or take away! My gripe is that so many doctrines we follow are already based on additions or convenient subtractions. As well, I fear subjective enforcement of particulars without careful, and heartfelt (theres that word again) consideration of the overall theme of Christs love. Thanks for the accountability, it is always welcome.

Psalm 38:7-10

Behold, I come; in the scroll of the book it is written for me. I delight to do Your will, Oh my God; Your law is within my heart.
I have proclaimed glad tidings of righteousness in the great congregation; Behold, I will not restrain my lips, oh Lord, You know. I have not hidden Your righteousness within my heart, I have spoken of Your faithfulness and Your salvation; I have not concealed Your lovingkindness and Your truth from the great congregation.

:up:

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Duder
Now - on to the main point I wanted to make. When you first accepted Jesus Christ, where did He tough you in the strongest way? Was it in your brain? I mean, did you start thinking a different kind of logical thoughts as the result of having accepted Jesus?

Or was it instead in your heart? Did you begin to feel things differently - did you intuit the world from a new center? If your experience is anything like mine, then it is primarily in the heart.. This is where you know - not in rational-linguistic propositions but in the direct tough of the indwelling God. Minds are very good servants, but they are terrible masters.

Be very wary when someone instructs you to put distance between yourself and your heart. The heart that is occupied by Jesus Christ will not lead you far astray. But a head full of ideas get you into the worst trouble. Re-read Clete's points above, pray about it, and consult with your heart. That's where God talks to you. He doesn't leave you Emails.

Matt

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2Cr 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Phl 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:


I could go on like this for quite a while but I think the point has been made.
And as for the first half of your post, words are not simply sounds that we make with our mouths. Words have meaning and ideas have consequences. And you will give an account for every idle word you speak.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Duder]

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. - Matt 5:8

Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be granted him. - Mark 11:23

The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart. -Luke 6:45

But he who stands firm in his heart, being under no constraint, but has authority over his own will, and has decided this in his own heart, to keep his own virgin daughter, he will do well. -1Cor 7:37

We are not again commending ourselves to you but are giving you an occasion to be proud of us, so that you will have an answer for those who take pride in appearance and not in heart. - 2Cor 5:12

Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. - 2Cor 9:7

So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; -Col 3:12

But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith - 1Ti 1:5

Do not be carried away by varied and strange teachings; for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace . . . - Heb 13:9

If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man's religion is worthless. - Jas 1:26

But let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God. - 1Pe 3:4

Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; - 1 Jn 3:21

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Duder

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. - Matt 5:8

Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be granted him. - Mark 11:23

The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart. -Luke 6:45

But he who stands firm in his heart, being under no constraint, but has authority over his own will, and has decided this in his own heart, to keep his own virgin daughter, he will do well. -1Cor 7:37

We are not again commending ourselves to you but are giving you an occasion to be proud of us, so that you will have an answer for those who take pride in appearance and not in heart. - 2Cor 5:12

Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. - 2Cor 9:7

So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; -Col 3:12

But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith - 1Ti 1:5

Do not be carried away by varied and strange teachings; for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace . . . - Heb 13:9

If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man's religion is worthless. - Jas 1:26

But let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God. - 1Pe 3:4

Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; - 1 Jn 3:21

:darwinsm: :darwinsm: :darwinsm:

I should start another thread where I predict in advance what you will do and say Duder!

Your predictability is so funny!:chuckle:

What, did you think that I was unaware of these passages?
Do you beleive that it damages my position? You're very much wrong if you think that. (Which you obviously do or else you wouldn't have posted it.)
I wonder if you are able to think it through clearly enough to figure out that you've just been tricked again into testifying against yourself?

:chuckle: I doubt it! :chuckle:

 

[Duder]

Rave on.

 

[Aussie Thinker]

Clete’s Bible Interpretation 101. RULES

Rule # 1 : Kill all fags

Rule # 2 : Messages of peace love and forgiveness are Ok unless they conflict with rule # 1 Kill all Fags !

Rule # 3 : Any interpretations that implies kill all fags is the correct one.

Rule # 4 : If you interpret the Bible to say something other than “kill all fags” .. you are a fag and should be killed.

Rule # 5 : Kill all fags.. it’s a repeat rule but it cannot be stressed hard and often enough !

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

Clete’s Bible Interpretation 101. RULES

Rule # 1 : Kill all fags

Rule # 2 : Messages of peace love and forgiveness are Ok unless they conflict with rule # 1 Kill all Fags !

Rule # 3 : Any interpretations that implies kill all fags is the correct one.

Rule # 4 : If you interpret the Bible to say something other than “kill all fags” .. you are a fag and should be killed.

Rule # 5 : Kill all fags.. it’s a repeat rule but it cannot be stressed hard and often enough !

The term is HOMOS! not fags!
And don't forget the "upon conviction" part, after all murderers should be executed as well. :thumb:

 

[Aussie Thinker]

You call them Homos.. I’ll call them fags…

Homos could mean Homo Sapiens which is everyone.. Hang on under CLETE LAWS everyone eventually would end up executed..

I note Clete you NEVER answered my query about having religious laws running the country.

Would you like to live under Muslim law ???

WELL WHY SHOULD WE LIVE UNDER YOUR STUPID INTEPRETATION OF CHRISTIAN LAW ????

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

You call them Homos.. I’ll call them fags…

Homos could mean Homo Sapiens which is everyone.. Hang on under CLETE LAWS everyone eventually would end up executed..

I note Clete you NEVER answered my query about having religious laws running the country.

Would you like to live under Muslim law ???

WELL WHY SHOULD WE LIVE UNDER YOUR STUPID INTEPRETATION OF CHRISTIAN LAW ????

I don't remember being ask. Sorry, I must have over looked it.

I do not advocate religious law. I advocate justice. There is a difference. The Bible is not an exclusively religious book. The laws that are intended for criminal justice are not religious in nature. Those laws that are religious are intended for Israel only and would not apply. The dietary laws for example have nothing to do with criminal justice but with other unrelated issues that had only to do with the nation of Israel and would therefore have no application outside that context.

And no, I would not "like" to live under Muslim law. In some ways it is more just than American (or Western) law but in other ways it is even more unjust. Their lack of a jury system is terrific as is the way they deal with homos. But the cutting off of hands for stealing and other such things are unjust as are many of the things they do to their women, not to mention the complete lack of religious freedom in Muslim countries. In fact, Muslim law is a good example of what you get when you have a legal system that is based on a religion (a false one at that) rather than on justice. So I think that the bad would far out weigh the good and I would therefore prefer to live under the current bad system rather than change to another one.

Oh, and one last thing. Homo is much preferred over any other term you can think of, especially fags. Homos wear every term that has ever been pinned on them as badges of honor, except HOMO. That one really gets their blood boiling! They hate it with a purple passion, if you'll forgive the expression! So I for one, will use homo as often as possible when referring to the gutter slime perverts who want to destroy every good and wholesome thing left in this society until such time as we can legally execute them all.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Aussie Thinker]

Clete,

I do not advocate religious law. I advocate justice

It is NOT justice to execute 2 grown men for having sex with no coercion …

You are basing this PURELY on your interpretation of your religion ! You keep saying the BIBLE says so…

END OF STORY..

You ARE proposing we live by YOUR religious laws…

It is NO different to the Muslims… Not only are you a homophobic loon but you are also a hypocrite !

 

[Duder]

Aussie -

It will be most instructive to learn from Clete what he understands "justice" to mean. I think we are in store for a real philosophical theory, because he's already signaled that justice is not based in religious law:

I do not advocate religious law. I advocate justice.

1. Religious law is not what I advocate.
2. What I advocate is justice.
3. Therefore, justice is not religious law.

The Bible is not an exclusively religious book.

His definition must be found in one of the non-religious sections of the Bible. I am not sure which scriptures those are that have nothing to do with God, but I am sure we are about to find out.
____________

PS - Clete has the extraordinary ability to predict everything I say before I say it, so I know he's got a reply ready at hand.

 

[Aussie Thinker]

Duder,

You know what I find amazing.. is the way a guy like Clete says things like.. “oh yeah.. but those Muslims have it wrong .. and it aint a religious law etc”

He completely divorces himself from the reality of the situation..

I wonder if he can even see how hypocritical he is… Of course what he advocates is Religious Law.. warped religious law but religious all the same !

Natural Human Justice revolves around “Do unto others” like Jesus said …

This implies that something that you would not like done to you is a naturally bad thing for you to do… This gives us all a clear moral compass regardless of religion .. always ask.. “Would I like that to happen to me .. ?”

I can actually (at a stretch) realise how adultery might be bad as it affects the cuckolded husband or wife and that might be upsetting.. but for the life of me I cannot understand who is being hurt by homosexuality ???

Yet this is what Clete seems to rail against the most !

 

[Duder]

Natural Human Justice revolves around “Do unto others” like Jesus said …

This implies that something that you would not like done to you is a naturally bad thing for you to do… This gives us all a clear moral compass regardless of religion .. always ask.. “Would I like that to happen to me .. ?”

Funny that one didn't come to mind when I was thinking about this. You're right - it's a purely philosophical, non-religious moral theory and you found it in the Bible, from the mouth of no less than the Master Himself.

For Clete to apply that moral theory to his ideas about justice and say that homosexuals should be executed, he is required to do something that I am not sure he can do. He has got to imagine that he is gay, and then say that he wants the authorities to capture and execute him if this were true.

He doesn't have to just play it as a scenario in his head, he's got to feel it. He has to say "there but for the grace of God go I" and think of himself being gay - and then see if, in that condidtion, he wishes to be executed. If he can do that, then he could apply the Golden Rule moral theory to his proposal to kill gays.

There are a couple of problems with it, though. First, I don't think Clete can do that. He would have to imagine the one thing that he absolutely must avoid imagining at all cost. He would never get past his wall that says, "Nope, not me. Never!"

Secondly, the Golden Rule is not a complete moral theory. It breaks down if masochists try to apply it. Some people like the idea of having people inflict pain or even death upon them - and such a person is just not equipped to use the Golden Rule as a guide to moral behavior.

The Golden Rule could be abused in other ways, too. Some people suffer from such an abnormally high level of shame and guilt that they want to be punished all out of proportion to whatever the flaw in themselves may be. Maybe there was a traumatic incident in their past, when a parent or some other respected person subjected them to terrible ridicule, shame or embarassment. For years afterwards they deal with it by projecting the whole thing outward - and they go on campaigns to do things like making homosexuality a capitol crime.

The Golden Rule is a good general guide, but I don't thing it's a perfect ground for a system of justice.

 

[Chileice]

Originally posted by Aussie Thinker



He completely divorces himself from the reality of the situation..

I wonder if he can even see how hypocritical he is… Of course what he advocates is Religious Law.. warped religious law but religious all the same !

Natural Human Justice revolves around “Do unto others” like Jesus said …

The answer is NO. He cannot put himself in anyone else´s place nor can he see his hypocrisy because he is blinded by hatred.

Originally posted by Duder
He doesn't have to just play it as a scenario in his head, he's got to feel it. He has to say "there but for the grace of God go I" and think of himself being gay - and then see if, in that condidtion, he wishes to be executed. If he can do that, then he could apply the Golden Rule moral theory to his proposal to kill gays.

My guess is that Clete struggles with homosexual temptation. He probably uses the dread of the death penalty to keep himself out of the temptation, reminding himself that he will be as bad as a murderer if he yields to it. In my nyears of pastoral counseling I've found that many who are violently opposed to something are often tempted by that thing. Even pastors can wind up preaching sermons against the very things they struggle with as a way to remind themselves (if not the congregation) of the danger.

I suppose that if we met Clete on the street we would be surprised by how mild mannered he is. And even if we were two men holding hands, I doubt he would come up and spit on us. However a forum like this gives him free vent to his internal rage and outrage and he is able to say things he would never have the guts to say in the real world (thankfully).

I'm sure that no matter how much reason and scripture you use, he will be unconvinced. He is a mind-reader and knows everything already. This quote here proves that:

Originally posted by Clete
I should start another thread where I predict in advance what you will do and say Duder!

Your predictability is so funny!

What, did you think that I was unaware of these passages?
Do you beleive that it damages my position? You're very much wrong if you think that. (Which you obviously do or else you wouldn't have posted it.)
I wonder if you are able to think it through clearly enough to figure out that you've just been tricked again into testifying against yourself?

Even the Bible will not correct his views. Contrary evidence is inadmissible. You can compare him to Hitler or to moslem extremists and none of it will stick. He has a teflon skin which has found its soulmate in Bob Enyart. It is not so much that he is swayed by Enyart, but rather in Enyart he found someone who shared his off-beat beliefs. He can now practice Christianity and be "saved" without actually having to live the Christian life. He can rail against society and call it love.

He certainly doesn't erve the same Christ who hung out with "sinners". The same one who came to save "sinners" and not the self-righteous. I really feel sorry for him. He is so close and yet so far. He thinks grace is for him and a select few and doesn't understand the depth of God's mercy. (I know you don't believe it AT but He is there and He is merciful, though you might not think so if you only get your info from Clete types.) Anyway, I no longer address him directly because all he does is throw stuff back in your face and rant some more. Maybe if he is addressed in third person he will read it differently. Who knows?

 

[PureX]

What worries me is that this kind of insane hatred, cloaked in Christian morality, is gaining in acceptance and power in this country. As modern reality more and more defies that brand of religious Christianity that's been for so long based on irrational fear and superstition, the people who practice it have become more and more enraged by what they perceives as their "enemy", and the enemies of their God. They have made reality their enemy, now, and their own irrational fears and superstitions have become the engine of their own "moral code". So there is no reasoning with them. Reason is their enemy. There is no peaceful resolution because they can't make a deal with people they perceive to be the devil. They are at war and whoever and whatever desagrees with their interpretation of God and morality is their enemy. We are all their enemy.

And what's worse, is that there are now enough of these lunatics around that politicians court their votes, and phony news programs stir up their insanity to get them to keep watching ans listening. And as they do so they begin to ligitimize the insanity and dishonesty of this ridiculous and sick religious world view. We are feeding it and it's growing. If we look at history, we will see that this has all happened before, and it always leads us to disaster.

I don't feel sorry for these lunatics nearly so much as I worry about what they're going to do as they get more and more political power.

 

[Chileice]

Originally posted by PureX

And what's worse, is that there are now enough of these lunatics around that politicians court their votes, and phony news programs stir up their insanity to get them to keep watching ans listening. And as they do so they begin to ligitimize the insanity and dishonesty of this ridiculous and sick religious world view. We are feeding it and it's growing. If we look at history, we will see that this has all happened before, and it always leads us to disaster.

Cyber reality is part of the problem. No one relates personally with anyone. Even here on this forum. We would probably make real headway and some good frienships of an old fashioned cherry-coke down at the bowling alley. But we let some electronic giants in Atlanta or New York or London dictate what we see and hear and how to think. And that does not only apply to fundamentalist Christians but fundamentalist anti- Christians as well.

 

[Scottb]

Originally posted by Kiwicottonball

We don't hear about these things anymore because there is probably just too much violence in the US/World to fit it all in an hour segment. Matthew Shephard isn't the only person, no way.

Or perhaps it's that we don't want to give violent bigots any more publicity, since the majority of the time these loud hateful spewings are just attention getting behavior.

more lie`s.