Nicer than God!

[PureX]

Originally posted by Chileice And that does not only apply to fundamentalist Christians but fundamentalist anti- Christians as well.

It isn't even about Christianity, really. it's Islam as well, and in some countries it's political rather than religious. Even in this country the insanity is becoming more political. Some people in the U.S. use the word "liberal" the way they used to use the word "nigger". The poison is not the specific religion, the poison is the fear and superstition based ideologies that now perceive modern science, modern reason, and modern reality to be their "satanic" enemy. Almost no one is anti-Christian, or anti-Islam, or anti-any other religion. But the extremism of this toxic religious "fundimentalism" (I prefer the term absolutism), whatever ideology it infects, does cause some people to have an equally extreme reaction to it.

People who have been abused by this poisonous absolutism in their own past are naturally going to react very strongly to it when they see it happening again. Can you really expect them not to? And they have good reason to be so alarmed. Too bad the rest of us aren't recognizing the danger the way they are.

 

[On Fire]

Originally posted by PureX
What worries me is that this kind of insane hatred, cloaked in Christian morality, is gaining in acceptance and power in this country.

Why do you assume that the errosion of morals in this country over the past 100 years is a good thing? What is the basis for your belief in "if it feels good, do it"? Is it always all about you?

 

[Chileice]

Originally posted by PureX

It isn't even about Christianity, really. it's Islam as well, and in some countries it's political rather than religious. Even in this country the insanity is becoming more political. Some people in the U.S. use the word "liberal" the way they used to use the word "nigger"...

The poison is not the specific religion, (I prefer tthe term absolutism)

.

You are right. There are several "buzz" names now that people call each other in order to dehumanize them and to make them easier to attack. It is that absolutism- religious, political or whatever that has a polarizing effect on society. It stifles true communication and replaces it with distrust and hatred.

 

[PureX]

Originally posted by Chileice

You are right. There are several "buzz" names now that people call each other in order to dehumanize them and to make them easier to attack. It is that absolutism- religious, political or whatever that has a polarizing effect on society. It stifles true communication and replaces it with distrust and hatred.

How can we counteract it? Any ideas? I don't know how to respond to it when I encounter it but to "call it out" for what it is. But of course that does little to change the pre-determined course of people's hearts.

 

[beanieboy]

Sometimes, allowing people to speak says more about them then responding at all.

I often point out the "kissy huggy" Christianity of Jesus when I hear people demonizing the poor, and programs for those in need, but more than anything, if venom drips from people's mouths, it speaks for itself.

Look at this thread. It begins by saying that Christians are too nice, and don't say enough about the sins of others.
From there, it goes onto a rampage of who we should be killing.

From let's not be nice to killing in the name of Jesussssssssss.

"yes, that's right...A snake with legs..."

Wear the name proudly.
Question what about "liberal" they disagree with.
If one's words are venomnous, they poisin their own heart.

 

[Duder]

PureX,

I'm not sure we CAN counteract it - especially if you are right about human hearts being determined by forces beyond their control.

Spectacularly successful as the human species has been, it is still a Johnny-come-lately race in evolutionary terms. We still toddle on wobbly legs. The record of written history shows noble ages of reason and enlightenment intersperced with ages of darkness and cruelty. In Hagelian terms, the back and forth of history is a reflection of the World Mind working out its destiny in a process of thesis, antithesis and synthesis.

Maybe there is nothing we can do to prevent a horrible new thesis from taking hold of culture in our time. But as you say, nothing in this world is absolute. The new Dark Age will carry the seeds of it's own demise (you and me), which will spring forth in antithesis and a brand new synthesis.

Its the whole Yin/Yang thing you see going on in the Tao te Ching, and there's nothing we can do about it. But looking at it in this way we can say along with Jesus, "Forgive them father, for they know not what they do." We align ourselves with that which is beyond the back-and-forth struggle playing out in firelight shadows on the walls of our cave.

Naturally, having stepped out and seen things from a wider perspective, we want to help unchain our fellow cave-dwellers. There is no moral complulsion to do it, its just what we like to do. The worst they can do is kill us, and each of us owes one death to the house anyway - so that's no big deal.

 

[Chileice]

Originally posted by Duder

PureX,

I'm not sure we CAN counteract it - especially if you are right about human hearts being determined by forces beyond their control.

Spectacularly successful as the human species has been, it is still a Johnny-come-lately race in evolutionary terms. We still toddle on wobbly legs. The record of written history shows noble ages of reason and enlightenment intersperced with ages of darkness and cruelty. In Hagelian terms, the back and forth of history is a reflection of the World Mind working out its destiny in a process of thesis, antithesis and synthesis.

Maybe there is nothing we can do to prevent a horrible new thesis from taking hold of culture in our time. But as you say, nothing in this world is absolute. The new Dark Age will carry the seeds of it's own demise (you and me), which will spring forth in antithesis and a brand new synthesis.

Its the whole Yin/Yang thing you see going on in the Tao te Ching, and there's nothing we can do about it. But looking at it in this way we can say along with Jesus, "Forgive them father, for they know not what they do." We align ourselves with that which is beyond the back-and-forth struggle playing out in firelight shadows on the walls of our cave.

Naturally, having stepped out and seen things from a wider perspective, we want to help unchain our fellow cave-dwellers. There is no moral complulsion to do it, its just what we like to do. The worst they can do is kill us, and each of us owes one death to the house anyway - so that's no big deal.

A Canticle for Liebowitz

A new Dark Ages. I am not a gloom and doomer...
but it might be closer than we think.

We are only one gereration away, if we can't learn to cooperate.

 

[Chileice]

Originally posted by PureX

How can we counteract it? Any ideas? I don't know how to respond to it when I encounter it but to "call it out" for what it is. But of course that does little to change the pre-determined course of people's hearts.

I do believe there is hope, but it lies in letting people agree to disagree, not in trying to form some organic, lock-step unity. That will never happen. I, as a Christian, have to face the fact that some will never come to Christ and that it is not my place to force obedience to my beliefs. Besides, it is against my beliefs to force obedience.

Muslims, atheists, new-agers, Budhists and the rest would have to be content with expousing their views without assuming there will be universal compliance. If you are my friend, I will always wish that you come to Christ but I will also respect your free moral agency to choose differently, even if I think you will be the one to lose out in the end.

In other words, I can still believe, even be zealous, without being an extremist and an absolutist. NO religion or philosophical belief or politiacal view will EVER be universal. So we should do our best to present our views and then all go see a good movie together or catch a good hockey game and get over it. I know that sounds kind of kindergartenish... but guess what?... most kindergartners get along OK. They really don't divide up over isms. Maybe we should serious people without taking ourselves too seriously.

If we don't, we WILL wind up in some kind of Middle Age world trying to avoid each other, hating each other and probably trying to anihilate each other. I don't want to go there.

What about a trip to McDonalds instead?

 

[PureX]

Originally posted by Chileice If we don't, we WILL wind up in some kind of Middle Age world trying to avoid each other, hating each other and probably trying to anihilate each other. I don't want to go there.

Yes, but what you are espousing is essentially relativist, if not in philosophy, in behavior. Yet it's exactly this relativism that these "absolutists" so abhor. They don't want to accept other people following their own path. They want to dictate the path that we all follow. And I don't know how else to respond but to say "NO"! And to say "I resent your self-righteous attempt to contol me". But they don't seem to care.

I'm afraid that "duder" has it right. We humans periodically seem to have to spiral down into a dark abyss of our own making. We forget how valuable freedom and peace and love and tolerance are, and we begin fantasizing about power and force and vengeance. We begin attacking our neighbors, and they retaliate, and the whole horrible cycle begins. I see no way to stop it, really.

Maybe it will pass fairly quickly as the MacCarthy era did. Maybe when things really start to get ugly we'll wake up from this foolishness and begin to appreciate again why we can't allow ourselves to walk down this path of division, hatred, and oppression.

 

[Lovejoy]

Originally posted by Duder

PureX,

I'm not sure we CAN counteract it - especially if you are right about human hearts being determined by forces beyond their control.

Spectacularly successful as the human species has been, it is still a Johnny-come-lately race in evolutionary terms. We still toddle on wobbly legs. The record of written history shows noble ages of reason and enlightenment intersperced with ages of darkness and cruelty. In Hagelian terms, the back and forth of history is a reflection of the World Mind working out its destiny in a process of thesis, antithesis and synthesis.

Maybe there is nothing we can do to prevent a horrible new thesis from taking hold of culture in our time. But as you say, nothing in this world is absolute. The new Dark Age will carry the seeds of it's own demise (you and me), which will spring forth in antithesis and a brand new synthesis.

Its the whole Yin/Yang thing you see going on in the Tao te Ching, and there's nothing we can do about it. But looking at it in this way we can say along with Jesus, "Forgive them father, for they know not what they do." We align ourselves with that which is beyond the back-and-forth struggle playing out in firelight shadows on the walls of our cave.

Naturally, having stepped out and seen things from a wider perspective, we want to help unchain our fellow cave-dwellers. There is no moral complulsion to do it, its just what we like to do. The worst they can do is kill us, and each of us owes one death to the house anyway - so that's no big deal.

Service, man. Have someone else pick a dozen different kinds of service for you. Do them, whatever they are. Do them for a year. You cannot serve somebody, body and soul, free of charge, for a year without coming to love and understand them. And if someone else picks it, your bias cannot be involved. Unless you pick someone with your bias. I use the Lord. That way I am not just serving the homeless or children, for they are easy for me to love, but also the grieving. Grief happens to us all, and not all of us are easy to love in grief.

Anyway, thats how I keep it real.

 

[lost anomaly]

Originally posted by Lovejoy

Service, man. Have someone else pick a dozen different kinds of service for you. Do them, whatever they are. Do them for a year. You cannot serve somebody, body and soul, free of charge, for a year without coming to love and understand them. And if someone else picks it, your bias cannot be involved. Unless you pick someone with your bias. I use the Lord. That way I am not just serving the homeless or children, for they are easy for me to love, but also the grieving. Grief happens to us all, and not all of us are easy to love in grief.

Anyway, thats how I keep it real.

I think that is a good plan.I will try that.

 

[Jefferson]

Originally posted by PureX
Maybe it will pass fairly quickly as the MacCarthy era did.

McCarthy told the truth. When the Soviet Union fell, once secret KGB files were opened. McCarthy has been vindicated. Where is the apology from liberals?

 

[Duder]

Did you know that Sen. Joe MaCarthy was a homosexual? When the story broke in 1950, he quickly married his secretary to disprove it. The couple never had children, but they adopted a daughter.

MaCarthur hated Hitler and the Nazis, but he had great respect for Hitler's methods. He studied the methods outlined in Hitler's Mein Kampf and applied them to increase his power and prestigie in American politics.

The ideas was, tell more lies than your victim can possibly refute. A favorite strategy of his was to go on television, hold up a blank sheet of paper and say, "I hold in my hand a secret document proving that so-and-so is a communist." Doctoring photographs with the help of his friend J. Edgar Hoover was another favorite strategy.

When MaCarthy accused the Army leadership of being communists, he went too far - The congress investigated his methods and found him to be a bald-faced liar. The spell he had cast was broken. He fell out of favor and was rebuked by congress. Shortly thereafter, he drank himself to death.

 

[Granite]

Books such as The Venona Project vindicate McCarthy's claims. His methods, of course, left a lot to be desired.

I'm not familiar with the allegation of his homosexuality. Does this have a point?

 

[Duder]

Yes, it does - denouncing other people as homosexuals was one of his tactics.

 

[Turbo]

:troll:

 

[Granite]

From what I've found Roy Cohn--himself a closet homosexual--was behind this campaign. Interesting.

This has nothing to do, of course, with the claims McCarthy made about communism and the vindication that Venona, for example, finally provided.

 

[PureX]

How was McCarthy's insane accusations against thousands of people vindicated? Did they all turn out to be communist spies as he claimed?

The fact that an american citizen might be interested in communist ideals, and attend meetings with other like-minded folks does not make them communists, nor does it make them spies, and in fact it's not even illegal in a free society. So I can't see how McCarthy was ever "vindicated".

 

[adajos]

Interesting thread, and an interesting article by Enyart. I think he has a partial point, but he misses much.

Yes, there is a time and a place where a Christian should not be afraid to give offense to sinners. But Enyart doesn't say that---he claims that Jesus was mostly offensive to sinners, and that's simply not true. If he were so offensive to them, one would be surprised that he was always invited to dine with sinners and live among them.

So now that we have established that, I would like Clete or one of his ilk to explain to me what value is added to their online conversations with homosexuals by referring to anonymous people on the internet as "homos", "fags", and "queers"? In what precise way does that advance the kingdom of God? Do you think Christ would have dinner with sinners and get them to repent by using derogatory terms to demean them for their particular sins?

Clete, when you talk with an overweight person, I hope that you call them a "fatty", "slob", or "tub of lard" just so your ideology is consistent. There are far more unrepentant gluttons in America than unrepentant homosexuals.

You make me sick! I want to vomit when you get near me or my family! You deserve execution you filthy discusting perfert! God is your enemy and so am I! Get away from me! You don't deserve to see God's sun light reflecting off my face!

None of us deserves to see God's sunlight. Surely you don't claim to deserve it!! We are all sinners---whether our sin is stealing a paperclip from a classmate or engaging in homosexual activity, we all are deserving of the same penalty. So perhaps a tad less Pharasitic self-righteousness from you would be in order, hmm?

Even if we're repentant of our sin we don't deserve anything but death. God wouldn't have to show us grace you know.

My intent is not primarily to engender repentance in the homo's case but to impact those around him and myself in such a way as to cause them to think twice before associating or participating with homo's.

Yeah, because Christ would never have associated with sinners. (HEAVY SARCASM)

That, however, is not at all the way you should treat people who are not only your enemies but enemies of God and criminals!

What happened to "love your enemies. Do good to those who spitefully use you."? They are the words of Christ after all.

So, in answer to your question, if you catch someone in your employ who is a homo, or an adulterer then fire them. In some places doing so may cost you your business, in which case be patient and wait to find some other reason to fire them.

Yes---do the same with any fat people you have in your employ who are unrepentant gluttons. Fire them and don't associate with them in any way. That would help. (HEAVY SARCASM)

As things are now, homo's and the like are running toward hell and most Christians wave as they pass and say "We love you...want to come to church with us?" It's discusting! I would prefer that we tackle them and break their legs (figuratively speaking)! They would like it at the time, but the swift decent into hell might at least be slowed.

Yes, shame on those Christians who try to reach the lost rather than revile them. Your way is much more Christlike. (HEAVY SARCASM)

How does it feel to get accolades from gutter slime homo's in your statements against Christians?

Yes, if a homosexual ever agrees with a Christian on any topic, they must be bad Christians--at least not as righteous as you.

Hate the sin and love the sinner is not a Biblical concept.

Hogwash.

Enyart does not think that we should hate nonchristians you disgusting vomitous mass of filth!
He thinks, as do I, that we should hate homo's like you which is at the same time the most loving thing possible.

Glad God doesn't think that way. Why is homosexuality your favorite sin to pick on? Try substituting other sins in for homosexuality and read your own sentences back and listen to what they say.

Can you produce anything to back up this idiotic claim? You are not only preverted but a liar!
I can't wait for judgment day!

Longing for judgement day to come soon so that "perverted liars" can be condemned to eternity of hell is sick, twisted, unChristian thing I can conceive of. But I suppose it would be a great chance for you to say "I told you so".

It's amazing that I have to specify where I'm being sarcastic, but after reading some of these outrageous quotes which I was quite sure were absurdities, and then finding out that they were not, I find it necessary to specify my tone.

 

[Flipper]

To be honest, the evidence to suggest that McCarthy was gay is on the light side. The transvestitism rumors were entirely hearsay from someone who bore a grudge against McCarthy. That, and he did spend an inordinate amount of time with his deputy, Clyde Tolson.

Roy Cohn was a grotesque hypocrite who was as gay as a window, if not gayer.