Messianic Christology

Elia

Well-known member
10 and as from the day that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel; and I will subdue all thine enemies. Moreover I tell thee that Jehovah will build thee a house. 11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days are fulfilled that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will set up thy seed after thee, who shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me a house, and I will establish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my lovingkindness away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee; 14 but I will settle him in my house and in my kingdom for ever; and his throne shall be established for ever.

II Chronicles 17:10b - 14

This passage teaches that

Messiah will be a son of David descended from a different line than Jechoniah.

Bs'd

Your messiah had no human father, therefore he was not a son of David, and therefore he is disqualified from being the messiah.

Since all tribal and genealogical records were destroyed with temple in 70 AD, Messiah had to come before that time.

God does not depend on tribal or genealogical records.

Messiah would live eternally.

It speaks about king Solomon, and he wouldn't live eternally, but his kingdom would be established for ever.

Messiah would be a king.

Your messiah never was a king. So he was not the messiah.
 

Elia

Well-known member
7 I will tell of the decree:
Jehovah said unto me, Thou art my son;
This day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I will give thee the nations for thine inheritance,
And the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron;
Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.
10 Now therefore be wise, O ye kings:
Be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve Jehovah with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the son, lest he be angry, and ye perish in the way,
For his wrath will soon be kindled.
Blessed are all they that take refuge in him.

Psalm 2:7-12

This passage teaches that

Messiah would be the Son of God.

Messiah will be a king in Jerusalem.

Messiah will also rule over the Gentiles.

Bs'd

Psalm 2 is speaking about king David. King David is the anointed one ( (messiah means 'anointed one'), see I Samuel 16:12-13. Here the prophet Samuel anointed him, something that never happened to Jesus, he was never anointed by a prophet, but only by a sinful woman, something that means nothing of course.

"I have set my king upon Zion, my holy hill." King David reigned from Zion, he lived there and is buried there, but to Jesus nothing of this applies, he was never a king, and he never ruled from mount Zion.

"He said to me; You are My son, today have I begotten you." This does not mean that king David was a physical son of God. The term son of God is used for people or angels who are especially beloved or favored by God, as we can see in Genesis 6:4, Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7, and Psalm 82:6, 89:6, and many other verses. Verse 8: "Ask of me and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron, and dash them in pieces like a potters vessel." All this applies to King David, God gave him victory over all his adversaries, but nothing of this applies to Jesus. The claim that Jesus is going to do this after his second coming is a worthless claim because everybody can make a claim like that. Therefore it is absurd to say that this applies to Jesus in stead of King David.
setstats
Another Christian claim is that the Psalm says: "Kiss the son, or he will be angry", but this is a mistranslation. The word translated with "son" is "bar". And that means in Hebrew "pure", and not "son". Only in Aramaic does it mean son, but not in Hebrew. And the Psalms are written in Hebrew, therefore it doesn't make sense to translate this word as if it is Aramaic.
Therefore it says: "Worship in purity".

Nowhere in the Psalms is the word "bar" used for "son" or "heir".It is used for "pure", see Psalm 24:4; "The one who has clean hands and a PURE heart".

And Psalm 19:8; "the commandment of Y-H-W-H is PURE, enlightening the eyes."

And Psalm 73:1 "Surely God is good to Israel, to those who are PURE in heart."
There is not a single example in the Psalms where the word "bar" is used as "son".
 

Elia

Well-known member
For the Chief Musician; set to Aijaleth hash-Shahar. A Psalm of David.

1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou answerest not;
And in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy,
O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee:
They trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered:
They trusted in thee, and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm, and no man;
A reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn:
They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 Commit thyself unto Jehovah;
Let him deliver him:
Let him rescue him, seeing he delighteth in him.
9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb;
Thou didst make me trust when I was upon my mother’s breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb;
Thou art my God since my mother bare me.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near;
For there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have compassed me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gape upon me with their mouth,
As a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water,
And all my bones are out of joint:
My heart is like wax;
It is melted within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd;
And my tongue cleaveth to my jaws;
And thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me:
A company of evil-doers have inclosed me;
They pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may count all my bones.
They look and stare upon me;
18 They part my garments among them,
And upon my vesture do they cast lots.
19 But be not thou far off, O Jehovah:
O thou my succor, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
My darling from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion’s mouth;
Yea, from the horns of the wild-oxen thou hast answered me.
22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren:
In the midst of the assembly will I praise thee.
23 Ye that fear Jehovah, praise him;
All ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him;
And stand in awe of him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Neither hath he hid his face from him;
But when he cried unto him, he heard.
25 Of thee cometh my praise in the great assembly:
I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied;
They shall praise Jehovah that seek after him:
Let your heart live for ever.
27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah;
And all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is Jehovah’s;
And he is the ruler over the nations.
29 All the fat ones of the earth shall eat and worship:
All they that go down to the dust shall bow before him,
Even he that cannot keep his soul alive.
30 A seed shall serve him;
It shall be told of the Lord unto the next generation.
31 They shall come and shall declare his righteousness
Unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done it.

Psalm 22

This passage teaches that

In extreme agony Messiah would cry out for God's help.

Messiah would be a despised and rejected individual.

The Messiah's bones would all be pulled out of joint.

The Messiah's heart would rupture.

Messiah would suffer an extreme degree of thirst.

Messiah's hands and feet would be pierced.

Messiah's clothing would be divided by casting of lots.

At the point of death Messiah's trust would be in God the Father.

Messiah would be resurrected.

Bs'd

Psalm 22

To begin with; the Psalms are not prophetic writings. Also Psalm 22 does not claim to prophesize about the messiah. It is nowhere written: The messiah will come and he will call out during his execution: My God, my God, why did you forsake me? This is king David speaking about himself. This Psalm is written mainly in the past tense, and describes the tribulations King David went through. But, as shown before, the authentic messianic prophecies are NOT fulfilled by Jesus, and therefore Christianity has to resort to Biblical texts that have no bearing on the messiah whatsoever, and present them as messianic prophecies. Because of the fact that, according the NT, Jesus quoted Psalms during his execution, the Christians claim that this Psalm must be a prophecy about the messiah. An upside down proof based upon nothing. And even that is not enough. In order to make it a little more authentic Christianity squeezed in the infamous falsification about the “piercing of hand and feet”. See verse 16: “Yea, dogs are round about me; a company of evildoers encircle me; they have pierced my hands and feet.” They say: “Look! Here is the crucifixion, prophesized in the Psalms!”

Point one: It is not written here that that the hands and feet of the messiah would be pierced. Like I pointed out: King David speaks here about himself, and that in the past tense. And on top of that: there is no such a thing as “they pierced my hand an feet”. The Hebrew word that is here translated as 'pierced' is 'ka'arie'. There is no word that even comes close to ka'arie that means piercing. To call this a mistranslation is too euphemistic, we should call this just what it is; another Christian falsification of their Bible translations, in order to squeeze in JC. The word that comes the closest is 'karah', but it is impossible to fit that in here, because that would violate almost every rule in the Hebrew grammar. And besides that, karah does not mean piercing, but 'to dig up, to bring up from the ground' (in the sense of mining)

The Hebrew prefix 'ka' means: 'as the', and the Hebrew word 'arie' means 'lion'. So what it says here is: "Like the lion [they are at] my hands and feet." The text between the square brackets is my insertion. So King David, who is not prophesizing about the messiah here, is speaking about a lion, and not about piercing hands and feet. The same lion he speaks about in verse 13 and 21.

Also the modern day Bible translations translate this in the wrong way. I could find only one Christian Bible translation who translates this verse in the right way, and that is the translation of the Y-H-V-H witnesses. But at least the modern Bible translations have the decency to write that there is no such thing in the Hebrew text.

My edition of the Revised Standard Version has a footnote with the word pierced in verse 16, it says there: "Gk Syr Jerome: Heb like a lion" That means that the translators get the word “pierced” from the ancient Greek translation; the Septuaginth, and from the Syriac translation, and from the Vulgata, the Catholic translation of the Bible into Latin, made by Jerome, on the request of Pope Damascus, in 328 CE. But this: “Heb like a lion” means that they admit that in the Hebrew is written: Like a lion.

Here is the footnote of the New American Standard Bible Update (1995): "Another reading is like a lion, my..."

And here is the footnote of the New International Version: "Some Hebrew manuscripts, Septuagint and Syriac; most Hebrew manuscripts: 'like the lion,"

What the Bible translators are doing here is ignoring the original Hebrew Bible, and translating translations instead, because that fits the Christian theology better.

But the exact same word "ka'arie" is used in Isaiah 38:13. This claim can be checked out by people who cannot read Hebrew, by means of the Christian Hebrew-English interlinear, that is a Hebrew text of the Tanach, (OT), with under each word an English translation. Provided by a Christian institution. Look here: www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm and look there how it is translated there. It is possible to zoom into the text.
On the right side of the Hebrew text is a normal English translation. Now look at the discrepancy between how the Hebrew is translated right underneath, and how it is translated in the text on the right side. VERY educational!


And look here how the English translations translate the word "ka'arie" in Isaiah 38:11;

New International Version “I waited patiently till dawn, but like a lion he broke all my bones;”

ew American Standard Bible: “I composed my soul until morning. Like a lion--so He breaks all my bones,”

The Message: “I cry for help until morning. Like a lion, God pummels and pounds me,”

Amplified Bible: “I thought and quieted myself until morning. Like a lion He breaks all my bones;”

New Living Translation: “I waited patiently all night, but I was torn apart as though by lions.”

King James Version: “I reckoned till morning, that, as a lion, so will he break all my bones:”

English Standard Version: “I calmed myself until morning; like a lion he breaks all my bones;”

Contemporary English Version: “Until morning came, I thought you would crush my bones just like a hungry lion;”

New King James Version: “ I have considered until morning-- Like a lion, So He breaks all my bones;”

New Century Version: "I waited patiently till dawn, but like a lion he broke all my bones"

21st Century King James Version: “I reckoned till morning that, as a lion, so will He break all my bones;”

American Standard Version: “I quieted myself until morning; as a lion, so he breaketh all my bones:”

Young's Literal Translation: “I have set [Him] till morning as a lion, So doth He break all my bones,”

Darby Translation: “I kept still until the morning; ... as a lion, so doth he break all my bones.”

Revised Standard version: “I cry for help until morning; like a lion he breaks all my bones;”



Another place where we see the word "ka'arie" is in Numbers 24:9. See here how it is there translated:

New International Version “Like a lion they crouch and lie down"

New American Standard Bible: “He crouches, he lies down as a lion"

The Message: “Israel crouches like a lion and naps"

Amplified Bible: “He couched, he lay down as a lion"

New Living Translation: “Like a lion, Israel crouches and lies down"

King James Version: “He couched, he lay down as a lion"

English Standard Version: “He crouched, he lay down like a lion"

Contemporary English Version: “Like a lion you lie down"

New King James Version: “He bows down, he lies down as a lion"

New Century Version: “Like a lion, they lie waiting to attack"

21th Century King James Version: "He couched, he lay down as a lion"

American Standard Version: “He couched, he lay down as a lion"

Young's Literal Translation: “He hath bent, he hath lain down as a lion"

Darby Translation: “He stooped, he lay down like a lion"

Revised Standard version: “He couched, he lay down like a lion"



Also in Ezechiel 22:25 we encounter the same word "ka'arie", followed by the word "sho'eig", which means "roaring".

See here how that is translated:Ezekiel 22:25 KJ21
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey.

Ezekiel 22:25 ASV
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey:

Ezekiel 22:25 AMP
There is a conspiracy of [Israel’s false] prophets in the midst of her, like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 CEB
The conspiracy of princes in her is like a roaring lion ripping up prey.

Ezekiel 22:25 CJB
There is a conspiracy of prophets in it like a roaring lion tearing up the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 CEV
Their leaders are like roaring lions, tearing apart their victims.

Ezekiel 22:25 DARBY
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst of her like a roaring lion ravening the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 DRA
There is a conspiracy of prophets in the midst thereof: like a lion that roareth and catcheth the prey,

Ezekiel 22:25 ERV
The prophets in Jerusalem are making evil plans. They are like a lion—it roars when it begins to eat the animal it
caught.

Ezekiel 22:25 ESV
The conspiracy of her prophets in her midst is like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 ESVUK
The conspiracy of her prophets in her midst is like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 EXB
Like a roaring lion that tears ·the animal it has caught [its prey], Israel’s ·rulers [princes] ·make evil plans [conspire].

Ezekiel 22:25 GNV
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof like a roaring lion, ravening the prey:

Ezekiel 22:25 GW
Your princes are like roaring lions who tear their prey into pieces.

Ezekiel 22:25 GNT
The leaders are like lions roaring over the animals they have killed.

Ezekiel 22:25 HCSB
The conspiracy of her prophets within her is like a roaring lion tearing its prey:

Ezekiel 22:25 KJV
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 AKJV
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey;

Ezechiel 22: KNOX
What of the prophets? A sworn conspiracy; lions roaring for their prey, the lives of men;

Ezekiel 22:25 LEB
The conspiracy of its prophets in the midst of her is like a roaring lion that is tearing prey.

Ezekiel 22:2523- MSG
The leaders among you became desperate, like roaring, ravaging lions killing indiscriminately.

Ezekiel 22:25 NOG
Your princes are like roaring lions who tear their prey into pieces.

Ezekiel 22:25 NASB
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in her midst like a roaring lion tearing the prey.

Ezekiel 22:25 NCV
Like a roaring lion that tears the animal it has caught, Israel’s rulers make evil plans.

Ezekiel 22:25 NET
Her princes within her are like a roaring lion tearing its prey; they have devoured lives.

Ezekiel 22:25 NIRV
“Ezekiel, the princes of the land are like a roaring lion that tears its food apart.

Ezekiel 22:25 NIV
There is a conspiracy of her princes within her like a roaring lion tearing its prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 NIVUK
There is a conspiracy of her princes within her like a roaring lion tearing its prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 NKJV
The conspiracy of her prophets in her midst is like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 NLV
Israel’s false religious leaders are making plans within her. They are like a lion making noise over the food it has killed.

Ezekiel 22:25 NLT
Your princes plot conspiracies just as lions stalk their prey.

Ezekiel 22:25 NRSV
Its princes within it are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 NRSVA
Its princes within it are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 NRSVACE
Its princes within it are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 NRSVCE
Its princes within it are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

Yechezkel 22: OJB
There is a kesher of her nevi’im in the midst thereof, like a roaring ari lion tearing the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 RSV
Her princes in the midst of her are like a roaring lion tearing the prey; t

Ezekiel 22:25 RSVCE
Her princes in the midst of her are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 VOICE
Her prophets conspire in her midst like raging lions killing their prey;

Ezekiel 22:25 WEB
There is a conspiracy of her prophets within it, like a roaring lion ravening the prey:

Ezekiel 22:25 WYC
Swearing together, either conspiring, of prophets is in the midst thereof; as a lion roaring and taking prey like a lion roaring and taking prey,

Ezekiel 22:25 YLT
A conspiracy of its prophets [is] in its midst, as a roaring lion tearing prey;


So the translators know very well what "ka'arie" means. It is just that in Psalm 22 (almost) all the Christian Bible translators are collectively struck with blindness, and go astray.

But here we see what “ka’arie” means: “As the lion”, and, more important, we clearly see what is does NOT mean: "piercing".

So in Psalm 22 it does not speak about the final messiah, and not about a crucifixion, and the “piercing” in Psalm 22 is just another Christian falsification of their Bible translations.
 

Elia

Well-known member
A Psalm of David.
1 Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
Until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 Jehovah will send forth the rod of thy strength out of Zion:
Rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people offer themselves willingly
In the day of thy power, in holy array:
Out of the womb of the morning
Thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4 Jehovah hath sworn, and will not repent:
Thou art a priest for ever
After the order of Melchizedek.
5 The Lord at thy right hand
Will strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
6 He will judge among the nations,
He will fill the places with dead bodies;
He will strike through the head in many countries.
7 He will drink of the brook in the way:
Therefore will he lift up the head.

Psalm 110

This psalm teaches

Messiah would be both king and priest, after the order of Melchizadek.

Messiah would have to be both God and man. To be priest He would have to be man but to sit at the right hand of God He would have to be equal with God.

Messiah's first coming would be rejected.

After Messiah was rejected, He would ascend into heaven.

After His ascension Messiah would sit down at God's right hand.

Messiah will return when Israel accepts Him.

Messiah will rule over Israel in the Messianic Kingdom.

Bs'd

Psalm 110:1; "The Lord says to my lord: Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool."

This Psalm is most likely written by an officer in David's army. It says here; The Lord, (in Hebrew Y-H-W-H) says to my lord, (in the sense of master). This is literally translated: Y-H-W-H says to my master: etc. This applies to David, just like the next verse, "The Lord sends forth from Zion your mighty scepter. Rule in the midst of your foes." This is what King David did, God made his enemies a footstool to him, and he ruled from Zion (Jerusalem). Verse 5 and 6: "The Lord is at your right hand, He will shatter kings on the day of his wrath. He will execute judgment among the nations, filling them with corpses." King David slaughtered many of his enemies, as written in this Psalm, but all these things that were never done by Jesus. Therefore it makes no sense to say that this applies to Jesus and not to king David.

-----Here is the explanation of the great Jewish sage from the Middle Ages, rabbi Moshe ben Nachman, a.k.a. the Ramban:

King David was the composer who wrote the Psalms with the aid of the holy spirit. He composed them for the purpose of having them sung before the altar of God. He himself did not sing them, nor was he permitted to do so, for that function was forbidden to him by law of the Torah. (Deuteronomy 18:6-7) Insted, he gave the Psalms to the Levites, so that they would sing them. This is clearly written in the book of I Chronicles 16:7 Therefore, King David perforce expressed the psalm in the language appropriate for utterance by the Levites. Thus, if King David had said; "The Eternal said to me", the levites repeating these words would be uttering falsehood. Instead, it is proper for the Levite to say in the Temple: "The Eternal saith unto my lord: (that is to King David) Sit thou at My right hand." The purport of the term 'sitting' is to state that the Creator, blessed be He, will protect him during his lifetime and that He will save him and cause him to prevail over his enemies. So it was, for he lifted up his spear against eight hundred, whom he slew at one time. This is the right hand of God. It is also written of David: "And Your right hand has holden me up." Psalm 18:36. It is similarly written: "The right hand of the Almighty does valiantly. The right hand of the Eternal is exalted." Psalm 118:15 Regarding Moses our teacher, peace be upon him, it is written: "He caused His glorious arm to go at the right hand of Moses." Isaiah 63:12 And Moses said at the fall of pharaoh: "Thy right hand, O Eternal, dashes the enemy in pieces." Exodus 15:6
 

Elia

Well-known member
4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, and descended?
Who hath gathered the wind in his fists?
Who hath bound the waters in his garment?
Who hath established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou knowest?

Proverbs 30:4

Bs'd

I know the name of His son:

"Thus says Y-H-W-H: ‘Israel is my first-born son, 23 and I say to you, “Let my son go that he may serve me”; if you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your first-born son.’”
Ex 4
 

Elia

Well-known member
24 Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy. 25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the anointed one, the prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times. 26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate.

Daniel 9:24-27

This passage teaches that

Messiah would be present 483 after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem.

Media would be legally executed.

Messiahs death would result in the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem.

Messiah's birth and death therefore had to have taken place before AD 70.

Bs'd

Read here what is going on in Daniel 9: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/daniel9
 

Elia

Well-known member
Not only this, but the seed would specifically be of woman, but not of man--typically, when speaking of someone, that person would be said to be of his father's seed. It is telling that Messiah would be human through His mother exclusively here.

Bs'd

Of course it doesn't say anything of the above.

The claim is that the following verses are a messianic prophecy: "The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all cattle, and above all wild animals; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." The fact of the matter is that nowhere here is spoken about a messiah, nowhere does it speak about a king or a ruler like it does in the genuine messianic prophecies, here is not spoken about a descendent of David or his father Jesse, the word "messiah" is not used here, there is not spoken here about a redeemer who is going to save the whole world from its sins; those things only exist in the minds of brainwashed Christians when they read this text. The only thing this text says is that there will be enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the snake. What is the seed of the woman? All mankind. What is the seed of the snake? Many more snakes. “he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” That means; men shall kill snakes, and snakes will bite men in the legs. That is all this text says. But even according the Christian understanding there is a big problem. Christianity claims that the snake is the devil, and the seed of the woman is supposed to be JC, who came to crush the head of the serpent. But we see that AFTER the death of JC, as it is written in I Peter 5:8, that the devil is going round like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour. So unless somebody wants to say that the devil is going round with a crushed head, looking who he can devour, this prophecy is NOT fulfilled. So if you really want to see this as a messianic prophecy, then you can add another one to the unfulfilled messianic prophecies.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Anointed lifestyles.......

Anointed lifestyles.......

who made your OT?

I know there were a lot of ancient manuscripts that didn't make the cut.

Also consider the 'revisions' made during the Babylonian Captivity, and the oldest extant full version Torahs that exist (relatively late), besides the dead sea scroll wonders.

So many different concepts of the 'Messiah' and more greek-gnostic-pagan 'Christ' figure evolved and are 'suited' according to whatever faith-tradition one accepts. More here. The commonalities and differences between Jewish and Christian messianic concepts are for starters, then branch out from there. No one really knows anything, but have adopted a 'Messianic' idea of some varying sort. No one knows anything outside of their own interior experience of a religious or sacred nature, concerning 'God' or a 'Messiah', beyond intellectual idealism.

The factual condition of our global society today doesn't really represent any 'kingdom of God' on earth, besides what each individual religionist or follower of Jesus models in his own life, and personal experience (also mirrored in communites of like faith and genuine spiritual service).





pj
 

jeremysdemo

New member
Also consider the 'revisions' made during the Babylonian Captivity, and the oldest extant full version Torahs that exist (relatively late), besides the dead sea scroll wonders.

So many different concepts of the 'Messiah' and more greek-gnostic-pagan 'Christ' figure evolved and are 'suited' according to whatever faith-tradition one accepts. More here. The commonalities and differences between Jewish and Christian messianic concepts are for starters, then branch out from there. No one really knows anything, but have adopted a 'Messianic' idea of some varying sort. No one knows anything outside of their own interior experience of a religious or sacred nature, concerning 'God' or a 'Messiah', beyond intellectual idealism.

The factual condition of our global society today doesn't really represent any 'kingdom of God' on earth, besides what each individual religionist or follower of Jesus models in his own life, and personal experience (also mirrored in communites of like faith and genuine spiritual service).


pj

yes many meanings of Messiah.

for some it is a metaphorical representation of inner spiritual growth.

a way of defining the rebirth of ones soul.

but it doesn't stop there, once one is reborn, it is only the beginning of life.

sadly for some the whole metaphor is a destination place they already arrived at, not a upward moving journey.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Custom canons...............

Custom canons...............

yes many meanings of Messiah.

for some it is a metaphorical representation of inner spiritual growth.

a way of defining the rebirth of ones soul.

but it doesn't stop there, once one is reborn, it is only the beginning of life.

sadly for some the whole metaphor is a destination place they already arrived at, not a upward moving journey.


Indeed.

Could you elaborate on the variant readings of the OT, or any parts that you refer to that are not part of the current OT canon? Did you mean various intestamental works like Book of Enoch, Book of Jubilees & the books of the 'Apocrypha'?



pj
 

jeremysdemo

New member
Indeed.

Could you elaborate on the variant readings of the OT, or any parts that you refer to that are not part of the current OT canon? Did you mean various intestamental works like Book of Enoch, Book of Jubilees & the books of the 'Apocrypha'?



pj

good examples for 'Christology' study, Jubilees is chock full of ancient references and dated 150 years before Jesus and his "Son of Man" term.

Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs is another good one with Messianic prophecy.

It's no wonder these text were rejected by the Sanhedrin cannon in the first century.

but I'm sure you know all this already Paul! but for the benefit of readers I re-iterate. :)

remember Jesus saying "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Christology..........

Christology..........

good examples for 'Christology' study, Jubilees is chock full of ancient references and dated 150 years before Jesus and his "Son of Man" term.

Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs is another good one with Messianic prophecy.

It's no wonder these text were rejected by the Sanhedrin cannon in the first century.

but I'm sure you know all this already Paul! but for the benefit of readers I re-iterate. :)

remember Jesus saying "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Yes, the 'Testament of the 12 Patriarchs' is an excellent example of 'intertestamental Christology' development,...a 'segway' between Jewiah and Christian concepts.

The conundrum with Religion in general continues as far as what part the 'Messiah' is to play in the spiritual progress, enlightenment and unity of mankind, let alone the ushering in of a 'New Era' of Light and Life which most all religious traditions have some hope or concept of. Jesus stressed the inner meanings and values of the kingdom being essentially esoteric, while such inner realization of Spirit would naturally transform all dimensions of one's life in relationships and service in the outer world. This 'kingdom of heaven' really cant be realized or lived, until the 'living principle' and 'spiritual law' of that kingdom is activated within.



pj
 

jeremysdemo

New member
Yes, the 'Testament of the 12 Patriarchs' is an excellent example of 'intertestamental Christology' development,...a 'segway' between Jewiah and Christian concepts.

The conundrum with Religion in general continues as far as what part the 'Messiah' is to play in the spiritual progress, enlightenment and unity of mankind, let alone the ushering in of a 'New Era' of Light and Life which most all religious traditions have some hope or concept of. Jesus stressed the inner meanings and values of the kingdom being essentially esoteric, while such inner realization of Spirit would naturally transform all dimensions of one's life in relationships and service in the outer world. This 'kingdom of heaven' really cant be realized or lived, until the 'living principle' and 'spiritual law' of that kingdom is activated within.



pj

yep yep, His sheep will bear the good fruit.

Like James said the only religion our father accepts as pure and faultless is "." .....and you know the rest!
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
James the Righteous.....

James the Righteous.....

yep yep, His sheep will bear the good fruit.

Like James said the only religion our father accepts as pure and faultless is "." .....and you know the rest!

James the Just, the Lord's brother would of course know these teachings, since he was rather intimate with Jesus, and was the leading 'pillar' of the disciples of Jesus in Jerusalem ;)



pj
 

jeremysdemo

New member
James the Just, the Lord's brother would of course know these teachings, since he was rather intimate with Jesus, and was the leading 'pillar' of the disciples of Jesus in Jerusalem ;)



pj

true,

my memories of TOL include how many "Christians" threw him and Peter under the bus....:nono:
 
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