Messianic Christology

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
John, does this mean you don't accept that Jesus is the Christ, the YHVH Elohim of Israel, the one who brought Jacob's people out of Egypt?

I hope Jesus is not too disappointed by your rejection. But then he is not soliciting your vote to be the head of the world's government, he will just claim the spot when the time comes.
 
Yamiy,

Apparently you believe in the chr-stian mythological fairy tale. I on the other hand do not. Please do not confuse your Peter Pan like imaginary god-man with the God of Yis’raél. That is very demeaning to God, which is called blasphemy. I have no problem with you following your pagan beliefs, but please leave the Gof of Yis’raél out of it.

If nothing else, just as an act of the supposed “chr-stian kindness.”
 

Doormat

New member
Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov;3731894 said:
Jews are forbidden from even associating with the vast majority of things that chr-stians believe.

Not all Christians believe the same thing.

Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov;3731894 said:
Nothing is more pagan than the belief that any god would impregnate any human female and produce a demigod.

God forms all children in the womb. He opens and closes the womb. Do you disagree?

Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov;3731894 said:
Nothing is more blasphemous than believing that the God of Yis’raél would commit adultery with any man’s wife.

It is not committing adultery with a man's wife for God to form a child in her womb, even without the man's consent or contribution of seed.

Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov;3731894 said:
God created man out of dust, why would He need to rape someone’s wife to produce a King that never even became King?

Parthenogenesis is not rape.

Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov;3731894 said:
Everything about chr-stianity is the exact polar opposite of Judaism. In reality, your so-called christ is the epitome of anti-christ. He is exactly the opposite of everything that the future King is supposed to be.

Do you believe Zechariah 9:9 is a prophecy about the "future King?"

Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov;3731894 said:
I honestly see no need in picking these apart one by one, especially considering that chr-stianity’s Yéshu is a fictional character created by the pagan Emperor Theodosius I of Rome in 380 CE in an attempt to unite the Empire under one unified religion.

Christians believed that Jesus was a real person before that time, proven by the New Testament writings and Anti-Nicene Christian writings.
 

Brother Vinny

Active member
and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Gen 3:15

This passage teaches that the Messiah will come thru humanity.

Not only this, but the seed would specifically be of woman, but not of man--typically, when speaking of someone, that person would be said to be of his father's seed. It is telling that Messiah would be human through His mother exclusively here.
 

intojoy

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Banned
Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov;3731900 said:
Y’sha’yahu 7:14 is probably the most deceitfully translated verse in the Hebrew Scriptures. What it actually says is:

לָ֠כֵן יִתֵּ֨ן אֲדֹנָ֥י ה֛וּא לָכֶ֖ם אֹ֑ות הִנֵּ֣ה הָעַלְמָ֗ה הָרָה֙ וְיֹלֶ֣דֶת בֵּ֔ן וְקָרָ֥את שְׁמֹ֖ו עִמָּ֥נוּ אֵֽל׃
Laḵén yittén ʾĂdonay Huʾ laḵem ʾot hinnéh haʿal’mah harah v’yoledet bén v’qaraʾt sh’mo ʿImmanu ʾÉl:

“Because of this my Lord will give you a sign: Look! That girl is pregnant and she is giving birth to a son. And she will call his name ʿImannu ʾÉl.”

There is absolutely nothing in this p’suq about any virgin at all. There is absolutely nothing in this p’suq about any future pregnancy. There is absolutely nothing in this p’suq about any future birth. The only remark in this passage that refers to any future event is that she “will” at some point in the future, probably 8 days later, name him ʿImmanu ʾÉl.

At the time that Y’sha’yahu is pointing at this pregnant girl, telling Aḥaz to look at her, she is in the midst of heavy labor. She is in the process of giving birth to a child as they are speaking. P’suq 14 is not the sign being given to Aḥaz, the actual sign is given in the subsequent p’suqim. The child will be fed curdled cream and honey to expedite his understanding of what tastes bad and what tastes good. Before this newborn infant is old enough to discern the difference between what tastes bad and what tastes good, the two kings that ʾAḥaz has been fearing will be no more.

This was a sign, not a prophecy, not a prediction of the future, a clear and present sign. “See this baby that is being born as we speak. Before he is old enough to tell the difference between what tastes good and what tastes bad the Kingdoms you fear will be no more.

This was fulfilled in 722 BCE. It is not messianic, it does not refer to the messianic age in any manner, shape or form, and certainly has nothing to do with any “virgin” becoming pregnant at any time.


Thank you for looking here. I got this information from Ariel.org.

I've learned about the extreme cruelty done to your people in the name of "Christ" and as a Christian I owe the Jews a lot of kindness. I do not share Jamie or doormat's doctrines. I'm also not a scholar and have to rely on what they have said on these prophetic passages. I do agree with Ariel ministries in their interpretations of this subject but do not desire to debate with you. I respect your rejection. I could only state that for someone as yourself who is affected personally by those who claim to believe in the Jewish Messiah that there are many variations of false doctrines concerning Yeshua of the first century.

I asked the writer of these quotes from Messianic Christology what he preferred to be identified as. He said that he did not like to use "messianic Judaism" because Yeshua and Judaism are worlds apart as you confirmed in your post. If you ever desire to debate with those Jews that see as you do the inability for Yeshua to be the Messiah in harmony with Judaism, I believe you can avoid those who think Yeshua taught Judaism or think that following Yeshua is predicated by keeping Torah and save yourself the energy by contacting them personally. Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum is one of our generations greatest scholars.

Your friend,

Intojoy
 

Princely

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Banned
7 I will tell of the decree:
Jehovah said unto me, Thou art my son;
This day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I will give thee the nations for thine inheritance,
And the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron;
Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.
10 Now therefore be wise, O ye kings:
Be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve Jehovah with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the son, lest he be angry, and ye perish in the way,
For his wrath will soon be kindled.
Blessed are all they that take refuge in him.

Psalm 2:7-12

This passage teaches that

Messiah would be the Son of God.

Messiah will be a king in Jerusalem.

Messiah will also rule over the Gentiles.

No, this passage shows that those who declare the word of the Lord are begotten sons of God. As God said; Israel is my son, my firstborn, let my son go so he can serve me.

The son of God is the chosen, the servant of God.

"The Lord has redeemed Jacob and shows His glory through Israel."
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Orthodox Jewish perspective....and more......

Orthodox Jewish perspective....and more......

I'd like to begin listing all of the Old Testament prophecies of the first coming of the Messiah. Hopefully these passages will edify us.

I think you might note that no traditional-orthodox Jew accepts these 'Christian' assumptions taken from the OT used as 'messianic' prophesies for Jesus....so these are exclusively a traditional Christian 'assumption' from which its 'Christology' is based. In this light, the term 'Messianic Christology' is an 'oxy-moron' of sorts. Various Jewish anti-missionary ministries address every one of the so called 'messianic' prophecies, and if Jesus fulfilled them, they would acccept him as their 'Jewish Messiah'.

links -

Seeing thru the assumptions

Could you also address Uri Yosef's article -

Jewish Messiah Wanted

Adding to what Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov shared,....Christianity is a morphed religion of various traditions and schools, further evolved over time, shaped by so many forces......like other religious cultures of course, but more peculiar in some fashion. The problem is further compounded on whether orthodox Jews will accept Jesus on his second time around (2nd coming), if he will be able to fulfill their formal requirements for being THEIR Messiah (not 'Christ' the god-man). It gets more complex of course considering all the other evolved and synthesized concepts of the 'Christ' figure and how this will all play out as we spiritually advance towards a 'new age'.

A better solution for Jews and Christians might be looking beyond certain 'messianic' assumptions and heeding the teaching of Jesus about the kingdom and the 'Fatherhood of God & Brotherhood of Man' theme which he served as a visionary for. He calls all back to the fundamental universal laws, of respect for 'God' and others, self-surrender, love, altruism, forgiveness, peace-making, purity of heart, humility, compassion, service.

Moreover, let us note that until we are the 'Messiah' or the 'Christ' in the earth, acting as the living-agency and Spirit-messengers of 'God', may we affect change and transformation in the world, while doctrinal debates of lesser importance may serve little towards that end, unless such equations actually serve to spiritually empower or inspire us to do His will. The 'Messiah' or 'Christ' in both Jewish and Christian traditions is a 'collective' anyways, no matter what head-figure is anointed to lead the company. - the 'corporation' is always essentially in 'spirit'.



pj
 

Elia

Well-known member
17 I see him, but not now;
I behold him, but not nigh:
There shall come forth a star out of Jacob,
And a sceptre shall rise out of Israel,
And shall smite through the corners of Moab,
And break down all the sons of tumult.
Numbers 24:17

This passage teaches

that the Messiah is to be a king.

Bs'd

JC NEVER was a king, so here we have yet another proof that JC was NOT the messiah!
 

Zeke

Well-known member
I think you might note that no traditional-orthodox Jew accepts these 'Christian' assumptions taken from the OT used as 'messianic' prophesies for Jesus....so these are exclusively a traditional Christian 'assumption' from which its 'Christology' is based. In this light, the term 'Messianic Christology' is an 'oxy-moron' of sorts. Various Jewish anti-missionary ministries address every one of the so called 'messianic' prophecies, and if Jesus fulfilled them, they would acccept him as their 'Jewish Messiah'.

links -

Seeing thru the assumptions

Could you also address Uri Yosef's article -

Jewish Messiah Wanted

Adding to what Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov shared,....Christianity is a morphed religion of various traditions and schools, further evolved over time, shaped by so many forces......like other religious cultures of course, but more peculiar in some fashion. The problem is further compounded on whether orthodox Jews will accept Jesus on his second time around (2nd coming), if he will be able to fulfill their formal requirements for being THEIR Messiah (not 'Christ' the god-man). It gets more complex of course considering all the other evolved and synthesized concepts of the 'Christ' figure and how this will all play out as we spiritually advance towards a 'new age'.

A better solution for Jews and Christians might be looking beyond certain 'messianic' assumptions and heeding the teaching of Jesus about the kingdom and the 'Fatherhood of God & Brotherhood of Man' theme which he served as a visionary for. He calls all back to the fundamental universal laws, of respect for 'God' and others, self-surrender, love, altruism, forgiveness, peace-making, purity of heart, humility, compassion, service.

Moreover, let us note that until we are the 'Messiah' or the 'Christ' in the earth, acting as the living-agency and Spirit-messengers of 'God', may we affect change and transformation in the world, while doctrinal debates of lesser importance may serve little towards that end, unless such equations actually serve to spiritually empower or inspire us to do His will. The 'Messiah' or 'Christ' in both Jewish and Christian traditions is a 'collective' anyways, no matter what head-figure is anointed to lead the company. - the 'corporation' is always essentially in 'spirit'.



pj

Plus the metaphorical nature of the writings by the prophets, and later revelations show that the Divine spark, or Messiah story is painted on a inner canvas, Jesus was made into another embellished heroic icon for the money changers to sell in the markets place of religious trinkets.

Daniel's capitalized Messiah is a suspicious inference into the text.
 

Elia

Well-known member
The Prophets:

14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isaiah 7:14

This verse teaches that

Messiah would be born of a girl who is still a virgin the explanation of Gen 3:15

Messiah will be the God Man

Messiah will be a king

Messiah will have to come before AD 70

Bs'd

Of course this verse says no such a thing.

For more info on Isaiah 7, look here: http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91870
 

intojoy

BANNED
Banned
I think you might note that no traditional-orthodox Jew accepts these 'Christian' assumptions taken from the OT used as 'messianic' prophesies for Jesus....so these are exclusively a traditional Christian 'assumption' from which its 'Christology' is based. In this light, the term 'Messianic Christology' is an 'oxy-moron' of sorts. Various Jewish anti-missionary ministries address every one of the so called 'messianic' prophecies, and if Jesus fulfilled them, they would acccept him as their 'Jewish Messiah'.



links -



Seeing thru the assumptions



Could you also address Uri Yosef's article -



Jewish Messiah Wanted



Adding to what Yoḥanon-benYaʿăqov shared,....Christianity is a morphed religion of various traditions and schools, further evolved over time, shaped by so many forces......like other religious cultures of course, but more peculiar in some fashion. The problem is further compounded on whether orthodox Jews will accept Jesus on his second time around (2nd coming), if he will be able to fulfill their formal requirements for being THEIR Messiah (not 'Christ' the god-man). It gets more complex of course considering all the other evolved and synthesized concepts of the 'Christ' figure and how this will all play out as we spiritually advance towards a 'new age'.



A better solution for Jews and Christians might be looking beyond certain 'messianic' assumptions and heeding the teaching of Jesus about the kingdom and the 'Fatherhood of God & Brotherhood of Man' theme which he served as a visionary for. He calls all back to the fundamental universal laws, of respect for 'God' and others, self-surrender, love, altruism, forgiveness, peace-making, purity of heart, humility, compassion, service.



Moreover, let us note that until we are the 'Messiah' or the 'Christ' in the earth, acting as the living-agency and Spirit-messengers of 'God', may we affect change and transformation in the world, while doctrinal debates of lesser importance may serve little towards that end, unless such equations actually serve to spiritually empower or inspire us to do His will. The 'Messiah' or 'Christ' in both Jewish and Christian traditions is a 'collective' anyways, no matter what head-figure is anointed to lead the company. - the 'corporation' is always essentially in 'spirit'.







pj


I'm not the expert. I'm merely a gentile believer in the Messianic claims of Yeshua of the first century based on these scriptures.

It is true that modern orthodox. Judaism rejects some of these passages as being messianic prophecies but the rabbis all agreed that they were messianic prophecies until the 12th century


Pray for the peace of Jerusalem
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
become an expert in research........

become an expert in research........

I'm not the expert. I'm merely a gentile believer in the Messianic claims of Yeshua of the first century based on these scriptures.

It is true that modern orthodox. Judaism rejects some of these passages as being messianic prophecies but the rabbis all agreed that they were messianic prophecies until the 12th century

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem

The facts however remain that the Jews would know how to 'interpret' their own scriptures, specifically those that are 'messianic' in nature, which the resource-links would help to illuminate, that is if any are interested in a proper education. In any debate all tenable and possible points of view must be weighed and considered honestly.

We've also explored the 'virigin birth' belief here.

Can you provide support for the claim of the 12th century being the time rabbis for some reason rejected some passages as 'messianic' and the reasons why?



pj
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
sparks embodied.......

sparks embodied.......

Plus the metaphorical nature of the writings by the prophets, and later revelations show that the Divine spark, or Messiah story is painted on a inner canvas, Jesus was made into another embellished heroic icon for the money changers to sell in the markets place of religious trinkets.

Daniel's capitalized Messiah is a suspicious inference into the text.


Paul summarizes the esoteric teaching in the mystery hidden from ancient times,....'Christ in us, the hope of glory',....the 'Christ-story' being Man's own story of his spiritual process of birth, death, resurrection, ascension, where the people of 'God' are all the collective Messiah, illumined by the inner Christ. These gnostic goodies inhere as the universal truth-teachings of the ages ;)



pj
 

Elia

Well-known member
It is true that modern orthodox. Judaism rejects some of these passages as being messianic prophecies but the rabbis all agreed that they were messianic prophecies until the 12th century

Bs'd

From where do you get this crazy and wrong idea??
 

Elia

Well-known member
Bs'd

See here how the NT does exactly the same: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/nt-prophecies

Bs'd

See here why that is total nonsense:

When you randomly take Tanach texts which have no bearing on the messiah, and rip them out of context, and then mistranslate them, and then say they are messianic prophecies, then you can make everybody you want the messiah, whether it is Napoleon Bonaparte, Barak Obama, David Koresh, or the rooster of Moshe:

A Chassidic Rabbi Makes a Startling Discovery


My name is Moshe and I am a Chassidic Jew who has, from my youth, learned the words of our Holy Prophets, and has been puzzled by their meaning.
Then, on the day before Yom Kippur, I contemplated the solemnity of the day and was made aware of the amazing meaning of G-d's words. I recognized the fulfillment of 42 Messianic prophecies of the Tenach, and they changed my life forever.


1. Early in the morning I went to get my rooster to fulfill the ancient custom. There in the light I looked into his eyes and saw fulfilled the words, 'I am the rooster* who has seen affliction.' (Lam. 3:1)

2. I took him and swung him around my head as the verse says, 'And he circled his head**.' (Lam 3:5)

3. I moved my hands as I swirled him, as it says, 'Only against me did he turn his hand.' (Lam 3:3)

4. With this he leaped from my hand and started to run. As it says, 'They have run away without seeing good.' (Job 9:25)

5. I cried a short pray to HaShem as it says, 'My words I say out of the bitterness of my soul.' (Job 10:1)

6. He ran from me, fulfilling the verse, 'To me they showed their back and not their face.' (Jer. 32:33)

7/8. I borrowed a cane from a man near me so as to catch him with the rounded edge, as the verse says, 'And Moshe took the stick.' (Ex. 4:20, Num 20:8)

9/10. I tried to catch him with the hook, but only the blows of the cane hit his back as it says, 'Afflicted by the rod of his anger.' (Lam. 3:1 and it also says, 'I struck you with the blows of an enemy.' (Jer. 30:12)

11. He turned to me and I got him right on the cheek fulfilling the verse, 'I have offered my cheek to the one who strikes me.' (Lam. 3:30)

12. He ran from me into a dark corner and I followed after him, as the verse says, 'He has led me and driven me into the darkness and not light.'
(Lam. 3:2)

13. I had him there in the corner as it says; 'All her pursuers overtook her in the small place.' (Lam. 1:3)

14. He stood there silent, as he had been to this time in fulfillment of the words of the prophet, 'He was persecuted and afflicted, be he did not open his mouth.' (Is. 53:7)

15. In that corner there was just nowhere for him to hide from me as the verse says, 'Can a person hide in a concealed place, and I should not see him?' (Jer. 23:25)

16. He was now trapped as the verse says, 'He has walled me in so I cannot escape.' (Lam. 3:7)

17. In his eyes I could see him praying silently to HaShem, 'My G-d my G-d why have you forsaken me?' (Psalm 22:1)

18. Clearly it was fulfilled for him, 'The mighty ones of Bashan encircle me.' (Psalm 22:13)

19. I grabbed him and he started to call out to HaShem.
As the verse says, 'My G-d, I call to you by day and you do not answer and by night and there is no respite.' (Psalm 22:3)

20. But there was no answer as it says, 'Though I would scream out and plead he shut out my prayer.' (Lam. 3:8)

21. It was clearly the end. I grabbed him and took my place in the line waiting to give my rooster to the shochet (ritual slaughterer.) He was silent, 'Like a sheep being led to the slaughter or a ewe to her sharers he did not open his mouth.' (Is. 53:7)

22. The shochet took him by the neck as it says; 'He grasped me by the neck.' (Job 16:12)

23. With that he screamed out, 'Be not far from me because distress is near and there is none to help me.' (Psalm 22:12)

24. He also said, 'Save my soul from the sword.' (Psalm 22:21)

25. He slaughtered him fulfilling 'He was removed from the living land.' (Is. 53:8)

26. He let the blood fall on the floor, as it says, 'I am poured out like water.' (Psalm 22:15)

27. I took the dead chicken and gazed at it as the prophet says, 'They have looked upon me whom they have pierced.' (Zech 12:10)

28/29. I took it to be made kosher. We separated it into pieces snapping it's bones as the verses say, 'All my bones became disjointed.' (Psalm 22:15) 'He has broken my bones.' (Lam 3:4)

30. Then I took him home to cook. My wife removed the skin as it says, 'He has worn away my flesh and skin.' (Lam. 3:4)

31. She placed him in a pot with water, as it says, 'For the waters have reached unto my soul.' (Psalm 69:2)

32. She added many spices as it says, 'And she gave ...many spices.' (1 Kings 10:10)

33. She covered up the pot so it could cook as it says; 'He has placed me in darkness.' (Lam 3:6)

34. The smell of it filled the room as it says, 'That the spices may flow out.' (Song 4:16)

35. After that it was served on the table and we gazed upon it as the verse says, 'I count my bones and they gaze and look upon me.' (Psalm 22:18)

36. He was divided among the members of my family, as it says, 'Therefore I will divide him among the many.' (Is. 53:12)

37/38. We rejoiced and sang as we ate him, as it says, 'I have become a thing of laughter for my people, they sing all day long.' (Lam. 3:14) 'In him our hearts were joyful.' (Psalm 33:21)

39/40/41. After which we were full and praised G-d as it says, 'You shall eat and be satisfied and praise HaShem your G-d.' (Deut. 6:11,8:10,11:15).

42. We truly saw the goodness of G-d as it say, 'You should taste and see that HaShem is good.' (Psalm 34:9)

There were many more messianic prophecies that I could have added that applied to my messianic rooster. Many more he will fulfill when he comes back.

In all seriousness the above example is no different then the lists claiming 200/300/400 prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. They claim the odds against a single person fulfilling them are astronomical. Or of their claims that passages like Psalms 22, or Isaiah 53 are about their messiah/god. Consider this well when you see or hear the claims made by missionaries or just simple Christians who you may meet. If not there may be a prophecy that does really apply: 'They are a people bereft of council and they don't have understanding.'

* In Hebrew the word 'gever' means both 'man' and 'rooster'berew
** In Hebrew the word is resh aleph shin, which can be read as 'rosh' head'


(c) Moshe Shulman, 2000
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Anointed ones...............

Anointed ones...............

~*~*~

'God' drops down into the collection of human tradition and creation a pure soul to reflect him, who is also part of a collective (individual community) and so that fit vessel is 'anointed' to serve within a certain context and cultural setting. How the 'Messiah' or 'Christ' serves the purpose of God is a matter of translation.




pj
 
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