ECT Matthew 24:3ff is spoken to the very elect of God

[Cross Reference]

Below is a prophetic word from Zec 12 with regards to Jesus:

"And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon." Zechariah 12:9-11 (KJV)

Question: When was that part of the verse fulfilled I have highlighted in yellow?

 

[Interplanner]

The NT tells us--during the Gospel event. These sections of Zech are quoted extensively by the gospel writers. That is why one of the basic flaws of futurism is to spend too much time on Ps 83, Ezek 38 and Zech 14. We should be where the apostles spent time on Ps 2, 16 and 110, proclaiming that.

 

[Cross Reference]

The NT tells us--during the Gospel event. These sections of Zech are quoted extensively by the gospel writers. That is why one of the basic flaws of futurism is to spend too much time on Ps 83, Ezek 38 and Zech 14. We should be where the apostles spent time on Ps 2, 16 and 110, proclaiming that.

Why did Jesus give forth a warning to His disciples, His very Elect? (Matt 24)

BTW, What is "futurism"?

 

[Interplanner]

His warning of the DofJ was due to the naive belief of the disciples that the buildings were there forever, and in fact, were for them. Remember how they were planning which throne they would sit in, and even talked to mom about that?

So what Jesus says in 24A is very shocking. The whole place and country will be pulverized in their generation.

Futurism is the belief that many OT and even Christ's prophecies are distant future. Generally it reads the OT apart from awareness of how the NT reads it; it goes right on to our times and tries to make a "fit" between things mentioned in the OT prophets and today's news.

As far as I know, the first wave of futurism was about 100 years after Christ through Irenaeus who was a student of John. Since the DofJ came and went and then nothing conclusive happened to the earth, some leaders in Christianity thought there was a possibility that God would someday do things in Israel all over. Perhaps they had misunderstood the intention of the Rev or other things Christ said.

Since Mt24B (v29+) said the worldwide judgement would be right after the DofJ, Irenaeus had honest questions. In Luke (actually recording Paul's teachings), it is seemless. But Mt24B also allows for a delay, and Peter in 2 Peter 3 explains and defends a delay (a delay in the worldwide judgement, not of Israel's).

Paul was very emphatic about the full wrath due upon Israel landing in the DofJ. Hebrews is emphatic about the end of the old covenant worship system. 2 Pet 3 says nothing about anything future for Israel in its complete treatment of the future. So I would find it very odd if there was another round of events in Israel. There could be deceptive events, but not another establishment of Judaism as existed the day Christ was born and raised in.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Those things did take place before that generation passed away.

Everything took place exactly as Jesus said it would before that generation passed away.

You live in a fairy tale world which is divorced from all reality. The word "generation" in this passage is not the correct translation because no first century generation saw a world wide judgment on unbelievers:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:32-35).​

You want nothing to do with the truths revealed in the Bible.

 

[tetelestai]

You live in a fairy tale world which is divorced from all reality. The word "generation" in this passage is not the correct translation because no first century generation saw a world wide judgment on unbelievers:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:32-35).​

You want nothing to do with the truths revealed in the Bible.

Jerry, you can keep pasting the same verse over and over again, it doesn't help you, you're wrong.

The Great Tribulation came upon the unbelieving Jews in Judaea from 66AD - 70AD (3.5 years), it came upon "those who pierced Him".

It's why Jesus in a previous verse in Luke 21 told warned only those in Judaea, near Judaea, and those who would travel to Judaea.

If it was worldwide, then Jesus would have warned everyone, not just people that had a connection to Judaea.

If it was worldwide, it wouldn't have done any good to go to the mountains.

Luke 21:35 was fulfilled just like Jesus said it would, and just like Jesus said, some from the generation of His contemporaries were still alive when it was fulfilled.

 

[nikolai_42]

. . . . that they might understand to be continually on guard by having a "sustaining" message within them that they be not deceived and led astray to perdition:

Beginning at Vs 3 where prophecy given His Disciples shifts from explaining the near future to explaining the end times we presently find ourselves:

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand):
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Behold, I have told you before.
Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Then shall *two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. [*both Christians]
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:3-51 (KJV)

I'm not a preterist, but aside from the Judaean reference that Tetelestai already pointed out, note what Jesus says of this tribulation in the verse I emphasized in your OP. Why - if this is really that final end - would Jesus speak of that tribulation in terms of before, now and after? Why say "was not to this time nor shall ever be"? Wouldn't that be implied if it were at the very end?

Also, if the end, then what benefit is there of fleeing to the mountains? If Christ is to appear "immediately" thereafter then why counsel fleeing fleshly destruction?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, you can keep pasting the same verse over and over again, it doesn't help you, you're wrong.

Of course you just ignore all the evidence from the Bible which demonstrates that after the great tribulation is over that there will be a world-wide harvest.

And here we see exactly how the great tribulation will come to an end:

"I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem" (Zech.14:2-4).​

Since you have no place in your theology for this to happen you say that it was conditional. But nothing which is said in that passage even hints that it is conditional.

 

[Cross Reference]

I'm not a preterist, but aside from the Judaean reference that Tetelestai already pointed out, note what Jesus says of this tribulation in the verse I emphasized in your OP. Why - if this is really that final end - would Jesus speak of that tribulation in terms of before, now and after? Why say "was not to this time nor shall ever be"? Wouldn't that be implied if it were at the very end?

Also, if the end, then what benefit is there of fleeing to the mountains? If Christ is to appear "immediately" thereafter then why counsel fleeing fleshly destruction?

Indeed, and by virtue of the fact nothing to that degree of destruction has, as yet, ever taken place should be evidence enough that Jesus was speaking more to a future event. Couple that with "And the woman [visible Christian church] fled into the wilderness [underground], where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days [3 1/2 years] Revelation 12:6 (KJV), we can see to understand we are already at the doorway of that happening with part of such persecution of Matt 24 having already begun.

 

[Interplanner]

On the second question, it is probably to avoid pain, torture. There is no desire for torture in the Christian faith, but it may happen.

On the first, it obviously allowed for other things to happen afterward--after the DofJ. This should preclude a 3rd temple construction and a horrible time for christians in Israel in a distant future. Mt24B (v29+) allows for a delay between the DofJ and the end of the world. 'Only the Father knows' does as well.

 

[Interplanner]

No CrossR,
the implication is that the DofJ was the worst event ever in Israel. Have you not read the description by Josephus? Have you ever read Pastor Peter Holford express it (heads up, it is in 1805 English)?

The saying allows for other things to happen in the future, but asserts that the DofJ was the worst--partly because it was so unnecessary and because there was such clear warning.

This is one of the reasons why we can conclude that NT eschatology did not mix the DofJ with worldwide judgement. It did expect the worldwide 'right after' (Mt 24:29) but it did not mix them. And the worldwide was delayed.

 

[Cross Reference]

No CrossR,
the implication is that the DofJ was the worst event ever in Israel. Have you not read the description by Josephus? Have you ever read Pastor Peter Holford express it (heads up, it is in 1805 English)?

The saying allows for other things to happen in the future, but asserts that the DofJ was the worst--partly because it was so unnecessary and because there was such clear warning.

This is one of the reasons why we can conclude that NT eschatology did not mix the DofJ with worldwide judgement. It did expect the worldwide 'right after' (Mt 24:29) but it did not mix them. And the worldwide was delayed.

I feel no urge to conclude any such thing.

Question: When was this prophecy, in yellow, fulfilled?:

"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. Zechariah 12:10 (KJV)

 

[Interplanner]

Jn 19:37.

 

[Interplanner]

Surely you agree that the worldwide judgement has not occurred yet, right?

And that the destruction of Jerusalem took place in that generation?

What else are you trying to conclude, then?

 

[Cross Reference]

Jn 19:37.

Thats wonderful. Thank you, however, there is this that speaks of a future time: Rev.1:7 KJV

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8 (KJV)

 

[Danoh]

Thats wonderful. Thank you, however, there is this that speaks of a future time: Rev.1:7 KJV

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8 (KJV)

His supposed understanding is off-base. He and his believe the Lord not only returned in 70AD through the Roman Empire's Military, but that said return was to wipe out Jerusalem.

But Zechariah has Him returning to do both - to wipe out the rebellious within Israel and the nations, but also to deliver the Israel of God.

Further, John 19:37 is not asserting itself a fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10.

Rather, John 19:37 is the issue of what Zechariah 12:10 asserts they will allsee - when He returns to deliver them - what they did to Him in their generations.

Zechariah 12:

8. In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they
shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12. And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13. The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14. All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

Matthew 5:

17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Matthew 27:

24. When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
25. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
26. Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.

John 19:

34. But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
35. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
36. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
37. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Those things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, and in that day; they will see those Scriptures were indeed fulfilled.

Zechariah 13:

4. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
5. But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.
6. And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
7. Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8. And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

Verse 7 describing when He received said wounds that verse 6 again relates all the house of David will be ashamed of.

 

[Cross Reference]

His supposed understanding is off-base. He and his believe the Lord not only returned in 70AD through the Roman Empire's Military, but that said return was to wipe out Jerusalem.

But Zechariah has Him returning to do both - to wipe out the rebellious within Israel and the nations, but also to deliver the Israel of God.

Further, John 19:37 is not asserting itself a fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10.

Rather, John 19:37 is the issue of what Zechariah 12:10 asserts they will allsee - when He returns to deliver them - what they did to Him in their generations.

Zechariah 12:

8. In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they
shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12. And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13. The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14. All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

Matthew 5:

17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Matthew 27:

24. When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
25. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
26. Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.

John 19:

34. But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
35. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
36. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
37. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Those things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, and in that day; they will see those Scriptures were indeed fulfilled.

Zechariah 13:

4. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
5. But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.
6. And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
7. Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8. And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

Verse 7 describing when He received said wounds that verse 6 again relates all the house of David will be ashamed of.

I am afraid Israel still has a 'cleansing' issue that will take place after the 144,000 are sealed per Rev 7:3, that will prepare it for the earthly Throneship of Jesus and before He initiates the events of Ezek 38 and 39.

 

[Interplanner]

Danoh,
you are maddening. All your conditions and qualifications about what the Bible means. But you protest soooooo much about man's reasoning getting in the way. Now we have Jn 19:37 being regulated like there was an Obama department of "meaning" telling us what it means!

John clearly states these things were fulfilled. Knock it off. Very poorly handled.

 

[Danoh]

Danoh,
you are maddening. All your conditions and qualifications about what the Bible means. But you protest soooooo much about man's reasoning getting in the way. Now we have Jn 19:37 being regulated like there was an Obama department of "meaning" telling us what it means!

John clearly states these things were fulfilled. Knock it off. Very poorly handled.

Obama department of meaning, hunh. Lol; that was funny

Funnier still is that it sounds like the autobiography of your misunderstanding of these issues, brother.

The issues in the passage in John and the two in Zechariah are not the same. As John asserts inJohn 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John will be a witness as to when Jesus was wounded in the house of His friends, Zech. 13:6 - this is what Zechariah is foreseeing; just as Isaiah foresaw the Lord's Disciples - Isaiah 8:18.

 

[Cross Reference]

Obama department of meaning, hunh. Lol; that was funny

Funnier still is that it sounds like the autobiography of your misunderstanding of these issues, brother.

The issues in the passage in John and the two in Zechariah are not the same. As John asserts inJohn 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John will be a witness as to when Jesus was wounded in the house of His friends, Zech. 13:6 - this is what Zechariah is foreseeing; just as Isaiah foresaw the Lord's Disciples - Isaiah 8:18.

Does that all mean Rev. 1:7 is to be ignored as a "further" fulfillment of the same prophecy?