ECT Matthew 12:40

[oatmeal]

The commentators can always be wrong...I think they often are regarding matters concerning the Holy Ghost, I may be wrong, but that is how I have always understood it.

Totton, there are times that Jesus spoke literally and other times he used figures of speech to make a point "more pointy?" clearer.

John 14:6 contains both literal and figurative concepts.

Way means road or path, that is its literal meaning, Jesus is not literally a road or path, but is the manner of action, method of proceeding, or access to the Father.

He is the method of access to the Father, not just God, for the OT believers had access to God but it was limited access.

Jesus made full access available not only to God as God, but God as Father. Ephesians 3:11-12

So then, how do we proceed? First we must look at a phrase or word or passage literally, that would be the best course to take, but if that word or passage or phrase does not make literal sense, we must approach it as a figurative truth.

Another example, John 1:29 John the Baptist said of Jesus, "Behold the lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world" Jesus is clearly not literally a lamb, so lamb is used figuratively to represent Jesus sacrifice as the passover lamb for all time. I Corinthians 5:7

However, he did literally take away the sins of the world. ( But individuals must decide to receive that benefit in order for it to be true for them as individuals)

 

[jamie]

They bought the Spices the day (Nissan 16th) after the high Sabbath which is on (Nissan 15th) and then rested on the Weekly Sabbath (Nissan 17th) and then on (Nissan 18th) Early Sunday Morning Visit the tomb.

:thumb: Yes, that's it.

 

[jamie]

Jesus did not say He would be in the heart of the earth the same length of time as Jonah was in the belly of the whale.

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Matthew 12:40 NKJV)​

Also a whale is a mammal, not a fish. Jonah was swallowed by a fish. (gulp!)

 

[Lazy afternoon]

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Matthew 12:40 NKJV)​

Also a whale is a mammal, not a fish. Jonah was swallowed by a fish. (gulp!)

More recent research reveals it was a whale.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

This is something I posted in another thread. I have been putting the timeline together for a while now.

Nisan 14th Wed (Day) Just before Evening (3PM-6PM Twilight) Christ Crucified and put in Tomb, Preparation Day.
Nisan 15th Wed(Night)/Thu(Morning) (Christ in the Ground 1st Night) Passover Night
Nisan 15th Thu (Day) (Christ in the Ground 1st Day) 1st Day of Unleaven Bread. (Special Sabbath John 19:31)
Nisan 16th Thu(Night)/Fri (Morning) (Christ in the Ground 2nd Night) 2nd Day of Unleaven Bread
Nisan 16th Fri (Day) (Christ in the Ground 2nd Day) 2nd Day of Unleaven Bread. (Mark 16:1) After Sabbath Mary and Mary buy spices.
Nisan 17th Fri(Night)/Sat (Morning) (Christ in the Ground 3rd Night) 3rd Day of Unleaven Bread and Weekly Sabbath.
Nisan 17th Sat (Day) (Christ in the Ground 3rd Day) 3rd Day of Unleaven Bread and Weekly Sabbath
Nisan 18th Sat(Night)/Sun(Morning) Night 4th Day of Unleaven Bread (Christ Risen Toward end of Sabbath) Mary and Mary Visit Tomb. Matt 28:1-6 Just after Dawn.
Nisan 18th Sun(Day) First Fruits (waving of sheaf) Christ is gone to be presented to God.

I have no problem with that.

The third day Christ arose, is the only difficulty.

LA

 

[oatmeal]

I have no problem with that.

The third day Christ arose, is the only difficulty.

LA

It is not difficult at all if you let scripture do the work

 

[achduke]

I have no problem with that.

The third day Christ arose, is the only difficulty.

LA

He had already risen by the time Mary and Mary had shown up at Dawn.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

He had already risen by the time Mary and Mary had shown up at Dawn.

True.

(Mat 16:21) From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

(Mat 17:23) And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.

(Mat 20:19) And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

(Mat 27:64) Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.

(Mar 9:31) For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

(Mar 10:34) And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

(Luk 9:22) Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

(Luk 13:32) And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

(Luk 18:33) And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

(Luk 24:7) Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

(Luk 24:21) But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

Can any explain this?

LA

 

[Totton Linnet]

Interestingly, the verse that solves the problem has not been read.

John 19:31

The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

It was not the Passover yet, it was still the day of preparation before the Passover,

The first day of the feast of unleavened bread was the Passover, and was a sabbath regardless of the day of the week the Passover fell on.

If Christmas falls on a Wednesday, people will go to church as if it was Sunday. Why? because that Wednesday would be considered a high day because it is Christmas.

How greatly informative the short phrase," (for that sabbath day was an high day,)" is.

That solves the problem. That sabbath was not the Saturday Sabbath. It turns out it was on Thursday.

Thus Jesus died and was interred on Wednesday evening. Three days and three nights later, he arose on Saturday evening the regular sabbath three days and three nights later.

Wednesday evening to Thursday evening is the first day and night

Thursday evening to Friday evening is the second day and night

Friday evening to Saturday evening is the third day and night.

I learned this from a man who learned to pay attention to what he was reading. VP Wierwille. His book "Jesus Christ our Passover" makes it plain.

Like other Wierwille teachings they have no doctrinal value. Much of his teaching was just sounding off. and of course he taught that Christ as not God....I am of the persuasion that God will never deal with you until you get out from under his spell.

It is like the JWs and the SDAs and Mormons they rarely get saved until they renounce their false teachers.

 

[achduke]

True.

(Mat 16:21) From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

(Mat 17:23) And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.

(Mat 20:19) And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

(Mat 27:64) Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.

(Mar 9:31) For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

(Mar 10:34) And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

(Luk 9:22) Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

(Luk 13:32) And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

(Luk 18:33) And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

(Luk 24:7) Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

(Luk 24:21) But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

Can any explain this?

LA

All these passages except Luke 24:12 agree with a crucifixion on Wednesday day. Not sure why Luke 24:12 is off but then again Luke 24:12 does not agree with any of the passages that I can see.

Wednesday Day 0 Crucifixion
Thursday Day 1
Friday Day 2
Saturday Day 3 Risen
Sunday Day 4 Christ meets with men. LUKE 24:12

 

[jamie]

Saturday Day 3 Risen

Jesus' body was entombed as Thursday began and he was raised as Sunday began.

The wave sheaf was presented to God on Sunday morning.

 

[achduke]

Jesus' body was entombed as Thursday began and he was raised as Sunday began.

The wave sheaf was presented to God on Sunday morning.

Thursday was a Sabbath so he must have been entombed before Thursday.

Also Christ must have risen on Saturday the Sabbath or during the morning of Sunday because it was still Dark in John 20:1. In Matt 28:1 it was beginning Dawn and in Mark 16:2 the sun had just risen.

John 20:1 and Mark 16:2 appear to contradict.


Mar 16:2 Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen.

Mat 28:1 Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb.

Joh 20:1 On the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.

 

[jamie]

Thursday was a Sabbath so he must have been entombed before Thursday.

It was the day of Preparation and the Sabbath was beginning. (Luke 23:54 RSV)​

 

[achduke]

It was the day of Preparation and the Sabbath was beginning. (Luke 23:54 RSV)​

NKJV says that it was still the preparation day and the Sabbath drew near. That means the Sabbath had not quite arrived yet.

Luke 23:54 That day was the Preparation, and the Sabbath drew near.

 

[achduke]

It was the day of Preparation and the Sabbath was beginning. (Luke 23:54 RSV)​

What do you make of the contadiction between Mark 16:2 and John 20:1?

 

[jamie]

NKJV says that it was still the preparation day and the Sabbath drew near. That means the Sabbath had not quite arrived yet.

Luke 23:54 That day was the Preparation, and the Sabbath drew near.

What is the Greek for drew near? The Greek word is used twice, once figuratively and once literally.

 

[oatmeal]

What do you make of the contadiction between Mark 16:2 and John 20:1?

What contradiction?

 

[achduke]

What contradiction?

One says Mary and Mary arrived in Dark and the other says they arrived in the sun.

 

[oatmeal]

One says Mary and Mary arrived in Dark and the other says they arrived in the sun.

Good question,

Having grown up in a religious environment where laziness, not workmanship ( II Timothy 2:15) was the norm, I learn tons when I met people who actually respected and believed God's word

People assume that that is a contradiction because they likewise did not understand that scripture ( the originals, the God breathed word, II Timothy 3:16 ) is authored solely by God who knows what He is talking about.

Usually common sense and logic and consistency of both were not part of any church service sermon, it was emotion and tradition with a little scripture sprinkled on like salt and pepper. Scripture was not the main meal, so to speak, it was but a condiment sprinkled on as a flavor enhancer.

Have you ever gone to the same location twice?

Have you considered the scripture is reporting the facts as they happened? That there was more than one visit to the sepulchre by Mary and the others?

Have you or anyone you know gone to visit the same gravesite more than once?

Truth is simple if we let it do the talking.

Our job is to read and learn, not complicate things by our unbelief or lack of comprehension or lack of accurate teaching by teachers who did not know or care to know better.

 

[oatmeal]

Like other Wierwille teachings they have no doctrinal value. Much of his teaching was just sounding off. and of course he taught that Christ as not God....I am of the persuasion that God will never deal with you until you get out from under his spell.

It is like the JWs and the SDAs and Mormons they rarely get saved until they renounce their false teachers.

That shows what little you know of scripture and how highly Dr Wierwille and others valued scripture.

He learned to find and teach and answer scriptural questions with scripture

Not opinions, commentaries, traditions and pagan ideologies and theologies.

Should you ever become a serious Bible student who sincerely is looking for answers from God, via His word, you may find yourself taking VP Wierwille's work seriously.

Countless times our people have talked to people who were praying for answers and we showed up with those scriptural answers. God is in the business of fulfilling his promises like Matthew 5:6

Should you ever have serious attitude about truth, we will talk again.