Mass shooting in Orlando, Florida USA 20 dead

[Desert Reign]

So you want Muslims to reject their own culture and adopt the American culture and the American constitution, except for the right of all Americans to bear arms?

Why don't Muslim Americans have the constitutional right to bear arms? Isn't that an unamerican thing to say?

Once again, you're putting idealism over people's lives. American/unamerican - is just an ideal. Tell me, was it American to bomb the living daylights out of civilians in Afghanistan when you were aiming for the Taliban, or in Libya? Is torturing people without trial American?

 

[chair]

War is not an appropriate response to terrorism; implementing proper justice is.

You don't go to war against individuals or any rag-tag group that pops its head out of the sand. You go to war against a nation.

In your dream world there is crime and "terrorism", which one deals with using police and "justice", and "nations" that one can go to war with.

In the real world those lines don't always exist. What is Hezboallah (or Hamas, or ISIS, or Boko Haram, or....)- a nation? an organization? Terrorists? criminals? who do you send after them? Police?

 

[patrick jane]

who do you send after them? Police?

Trained military personnel

 

[Stripe]

In your dream world there is crime and "terrorism", which one deals with using police and "justice", and "nations" that one can go to war with.

Try grammar next time. :dizzy:

In the real world those lines don't always exist. What is Hezboallah (or Hamas, or ISIS, or Boko Haram, or....)- a nation? an organization? Terrorists? criminals? who do you send after them? Police?

Hamas is for all intents and purposes a government.

There are governments that control the areas the other groups work in.

It's pretty simple from the US' perspective. Write up and maintain a list of governments on a world map; if there are operations in an area that affect US interests, demand a proper response from the government of that area. The only reason to get involved militarily is to fight that government, though limited military assistance would be acceptable.

 

[chair]

Try grammar next time. :dizzy:


Hamas is for all intents and purposes a government.

There are governments that control the areas the other groups work in.

It's pretty simple from the US' perspective. Write up and maintain a list of governments on a world map; if there are operations in an area that affect US interests, demand a proper response from the government of that area. The only reason to get involved militarily is to fight that government, though limited military assistance would be acceptable.

It all sounds so simple and clear-cut. And good grammar too. Too bad reality is a tad more complicated.

 

[Interplanner]

It all sounds so simple and clear-cut. And good grammar too. Too bad reality is a tad more complicated.

you are right about how complicated it is. Which is why Hilary's plan is so awful and why there needs to be a complete stop of immigration from certain countries, because no matter what confusion as to legal entity, people move from one country to another.

 

[Stripe]

It all sounds so simple and clear-cut.

It is. Is there some problem with it?

And good grammar too.

To be fair, I am not overly concerned about poor grammar — though I can spot it better than anyone — but your opening line was incomprehensible.

Too bad reality is a tad more complicated.

Reality is always more complicated than written guidelines.

That doesn't stop us making plans and considering the best course of action in generalized terms.

Or are you just here to troll again? :troll:

 

[annabenedetti]

Once again, you're putting idealism over people's lives. American/unamerican - is just an ideal. Tell me, was it American to bomb the living daylights out of civilians in Afghanistan when you were aiming for the Taliban, or in Libya? Is torturing people without trial American?

Do you wonder, then, why they hate the U.S. in particular?

You're being idealistic in your own way by proposing solutions that won't pass constitutional muster.

 

[chair]

It is. Is there some problem with it?

To be fair, I am not overly concerned about poor grammar — though I can spot it better than anyone — but your opening line was incomprehensible.

Reality is always more complicated than written guidelines.

That doesn't stop us making plans and considering the best course of action in generalized terms.

Or are you just here to troll again? :troll:

It really is possible to have a conversation without stupid comments about trolls.

The issue here is that reality is complicated, and plans need to take that into account. "Generalized plans" that are divorced from reality are useless. Simply defining groups as either "nations" or "terrorists" ignores reality.

 

[annabenedetti]

In the real world those lines don't always exist. What is Hezboallah (or Hamas, or ISIS, or Boko Haram, or....)- a nation? an organization? Terrorists? criminals? who do you send after them? Police?

"It's pretty simple... demand a proper response."

And you mock liberals.... :chuckle:

 

[Stripe]

Simply defining groups as either "nations" or "terrorists" ignores reality.

Except that, in reality, we can rightly attribute nationhood to a governing body that controls a block of land. And it pays not to invent strategies and attribute them to me.

 

[Nick M]

Then quit talking about what you think I think or what you think I am - and talk about radical Islam and related subjects.

We are. And answer the question. Your posting strawmen.

 

[Desert Reign]

Do you wonder, then, why they hate the U.S. in particular?

You're being idealistic in your own way by proposing solutions that won't pass constitutional muster.

I wasn't being idealistic. I was offering practical brainstorming suggestions. If a suggestion is unrealistic, it doesn't make it idealistic. I am not an idealistic person. All my thoughts and actions are rooted and grounded in the real world, not the world of ideas. The constitution itself is an ideal, that is why it cannot be adequate to cope with every real situation. And you don't seem to be actually disagreeing with me that America has many times in the past, and indeed almost seems in the habit of doing very un-American things when it feels like it.

By the way, I have several more brainstorming ideas, but just this one might appeal to some:
Cut off the head of the snake.

 

[Nick M]

So you want Muslims to reject their own culture and adopt the American culture and the American constitution,

That is what happens when you move to a new country. You assimilate to their ways.

except for the right of all Americans to bear arms?

Oh, so now you are opposed to gun confiscation, unlike all your other posts?

I just wish something would hurry up and come to end this stupid, recent obsession with being against arms. Then we can get back to reality.

Reality is the 355 multiple shootings in the US so far this year.

Try the Mass Shooting Tracker: http://shootingtracker.com/wiki/Mass_Shootings_in_2015

 

[gcthomas]

That is what happens when you move to a new country. You assimilate to their ways.

Oh, so now you are opposed to gun confiscation, unlike all your other posts?

So you want to preserve the constitutional right to bear arms, except for the Americans you don't approve of? Ok, got it.

 

[gcthomas]

Once again, you're putting idealism over people's lives. American/unamerican - is just an ideal. Tell me, was it American to bomb the living daylights out of civilians in Afghanistan when you were aiming for the Taliban, or in Libya? Is torturing people without trial American?

If this forum is representative, then bombing the living daylights out of foreigners seems the epitome of Americanism.

Do you want to preserve the constitutional right to bear arms only for those Americans like you, or is that right for everyone?

 

[annabenedetti]

I wasn't being idealistic. I was offering practical brainstorming suggestions.

If you're offering suggestions you already know aren't legal, I'd say you're being idealistic. Wishful thinking doesn't do much against constitutional reality.

If a suggestion is unrealistic, it doesn't make it idealistic. I am not an idealistic person.

I think you're being idealistic in thinking you're not idealistic.

The constitution itself is an ideal, that is why it cannot be adequate to cope with every real situation

We've done all right so far. Sometimes it's needed amending - and sometimes it didn't.

And you don't seem to be actually disagreeing with me that America has many times in the past, and indeed almost seems in the habit of doing very un-American things when it feels like it.

Are you surprised that I don't disagree?

All my thoughts and actions are rooted and grounded in the real world, not the world of ideas.

By the way, I have several more brainstorming ideas, but just this one might appeal to some: Cut off the head of the snake.

 

[annabenedetti]

We are. And answer the question. Your posting strawmen.

Show me the straw man.

 

[Crucible]

Do you wonder, then, why they hate the U.S. in particular?

American Christianity is still largely conservative and rigid in the 1st World. It is also the leader of the 1st World- Islam sees it as the primary threat, and therefore the primary target.

 

[Desert Reign]

If this forum is representative, then bombing the living daylights out of foreigners seems the epitome of Americanism.

Do you want to preserve the constitutional right to bear arms only for those Americans like you, or is that right for everyone?

I'm not American. I was only making suggestions. I have said this many times. Suggestions. And I am trying to get people to realise that statements like 'Arabs are no better or worse than others' or 'it would be unconstitutional' or 'Christians historically have nothing to be proud of'. And very many similar statements, actualy do nothing. All they mean is 'I don't want to do anything to stop Muslim terrorism or the encroachment of Sharia law into my country.'

If you're offering suggestions you already know aren't legal, I'd say you're being idealistic. Wishful thinking doesn't do much against constitutional reality.

No, Anna, I know the meanings of words. You are hiding. Of course some of my suggestions aren't legal. That's the point. But America has done lots of things that aren't legal in the past. Why would you raise this now? Is it because you actually love Muslims and want them to come freely to your country and assimilate into your culture? Of course they will do no such thing. You only have to look at England to see this.