Madists

clefty

New member
The Apostle John tells the Christian that they already possess eternal life (1 Jn.5:11) and here is what the Lord Jesus says about those to whom He has given eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.6:63).​



"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them" (2 Pet.2:20-21).​

Those that deny the eternal security of Christians ask, "If this passage refers to people who have eternal security then how would it have been better for them NOT to have known the way of righteousness?"

Let us look at the following verse: "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them" (2 Pet.2:21).

These people were obviously saved because they knew "the way of righteousness", which is by the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ:

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death...That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Ro.8:2,4).​

They knew the "way of righteousness" was by denying "worldy lusts" and "ungodliness":

"Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world"
(Titus 2:12).​

However, after being saved and knowing the "way of righteousness" they turned away from the "holy commandment". The Greek word translated "commandment" means "of the whole body of moral precepts of Christianity 2 Pet. ii. 21" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

The words of Peter at 2 Peter 2:20-21 are speaking of some Christians who were born again and they are described as "those who are just escaping from those who live in error" (v.18) and as having escaped the pollutions of the world (v.20). However,some false teachers had "promised them liberty" (v.19) and allured them through the lusts of their flesh into believing a false teaching in regard to "morals". This false teaching is probably the same thing that Paul refers to at Romans 3:8--that the Christians were falsely accused of teaching "Let us do evil that good may come." This was a false teaching that said that the more we sin then the more that grace will abound, and was based on a false interpretation of the words at Romans 6:1-"shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?"

So the people who had escaped moral pollution by the knowledge of the gospel as well as the moral teachings that urge the Christian to keep himself "holy" had been deceived into believing that they should continue to sin so that grace would abound even more. They returned to their old way of life (v.22). They are worse off now and it would have been better if they had never even heard the moral commandments at first because now they have no excuse for their behavior.

Ummm...ok but by hearing and believing only is what I thought we were talking about and in the background the idea that none should be deceived out of it once saved...

Here you are merely talking about those that have overcome...

We all still perish...many already have...and some pluck themselves out of His hand...letting ourselves be deceived to return to former ways...or to continue to disobey the holy commandment in order to receive grace...

Not an uncommon idea here at TOL...


But to those that overcome (obey) they do receive at the end eternal life...and none shall be plucked out of His hands...
 

God's Truth

New member
There is no "do to stay in Him." If you believe there is, you're not in Him.


1 Timothy 4:6 If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; rather, train yourself to be godly.

1 Timothy 4:8
For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.

I thought you said you believe Paul.
 

God's Truth

New member
The gospel is given to "men," not Satan.

All you are doing is trying to find an excuse to explain why you do not believe what the Lord Jesus said at John 5:24.

One day you will regret your imprudence.

Even the demons believe and do SOMETHING, they shudder.

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.
 

God's Truth

New member
The Apostle John tells the Christian that they already possess eternal life (1 Jn.5:11) and here is what the Lord Jesus says about those to whom He has given eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.6:63).​

That means you cannot unsave someone Jesus saved, as you have tried to do when you claim I will be denied by God.
 

clefty

New member
Yes, because we know who you are.

Rather you know Him...no rather you are KNOWN BY HIM...

Yours would have nothing changed upon belief...no new heart no death to old self...no different fruit...

Even He remained in His Father's love how? by DOING HIS WILL...not merely hearing and belief...
 

God's Truth

New member
Rather you know Him...no rather you are KNOWN BY HIM...

Yours would have nothing changed upon belief...no new heart no death to old self...no different fruit...

Even He remained in His Father's love how? by DOING HIS WILL...not merely hearing and belief...

That is right!
 

God's Truth

New member
You are however in His yoke...not wild but domesticated to do His Works...

As if He bought you to do nothing...lol

We cannot even get grafted in him unless we do what he says.


unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven; Matthew 5:32.

unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven; Matthew 18:3.

unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart; Matthew 18:35.

unless you repent, you too will all perish; Luke 13:3.

unless they are born of water and the Spirit; John 3:5.

Unless I wash you, you have no part with me; John 13:8.

unless it dies; 1 Corinthians 15:36.



We can see PLAINLY that Jesus says UNLESS, so how does anyone get we have to do NOTHING?

We only have to believe that we have to do what Jesus says!
 

clefty

New member
I've come to realize that it's the people who call their selves 'Pauline' that ultimately don't understand Paul :rolleyes:

Paul was a bit more liberal with the people in the Gentile world because they either didn't know jack about Judaism or were heavily adulterated by Roman influence.
It would have been too much to burden them with works and so forth- it was a temporary thing to get the ball rolling.

After you establish Christianity throughout all the land and build a culture on it, you are then subjected to the apostles because the Gentile world has then become Abrahamic.

It's very simple- Darby, and those who followed, simply dismissed this key revelation of us all becoming seed of Abraham- instead they want to call it 'replacement theology' instead of what it truly is: The New Covenant

Not 'The Other Covenant', or 'Covenant: the Sequel'.
The New Covenant

Covenants like marriage are contracts...when the first was made with Israel she was His bride and He her husband and until "death do us part"

well she committed great harlotry and He put her away...long story short...she ended up killing Him and thus broke that first covenant...He now is free to find another grateful and faithful wife...

That ex is free to keep whoring...and is

He however expects of His new wife exactly what He wanted from the first...not just hearing and believing but obedience and faithfulness IN ALL THINGS and which HE WANTS and set up Himself...NOT things she sets up for herself to make herself appealing to man...that is exactly what the ex did...you know the traditions of men...
 

Crucible

BANNED
Banned
Actions, or lack of actions, or right actions, or wrong actions, neither prove nor disprove saving faith.

It's not about proving to others, it's about one's internal change, and an inner change will bring an outward change. When you all gripe about taxes going to the poor, overly promoting guns and the death penalty, and demonizing anything that resembles 'a work', you are not resembling that righteousness of Christ.

James teaches that faith without works is a dead faith, and Paul teaches that works without faith profit nothing.

There is only one conclusion to the matter, and you all just do not want to accept it. The Reformers made short work of it, but you've all made a conundrum of the Scriptures.

And since I've brought up the Reformers, let's make note of the fact that they are the one's who authored the dogma of Faith Alone in the first place :AMR:
Is that not enough? Do you all really need more liberation from works? This is one of the key things I take issue with in Madism- you all do not appear to want anything other than separation from sacrifice, conviction, duty, and holy tradition- it is a Christianity that costs nothing because it worth nothing.
 
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1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
You are however in His yoke...not wild but domesticated to do His Works...

As if He bought you to do nothing...lol

King James Bible
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

:king:
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
Covenants like marriage are contracts...when the first was made with Israel she was His bride and He her husband and until "death do us part"

well she committed great harlotry and He put her away...long story short...she ended up killing Him and thus broke that first covenant...He now is free to find another grateful and faithful wife...

That ex is free to keep whoring...and is

He however expects of His new wife exactly what He wanted from the first...not just hearing and believing but obedience and faithfulness IN ALL THINGS and which HE WANTS and set up Himself...NOT things she sets up for herself to make herself appealing to man...that is exactly what the ex did...you know the traditions of men...

Dang ole isms.... lol
 

clefty

New member
Even the demons believe and do SOMETHING, they shudder.

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

Lol...and move from defiled to defiled...demon flavored ham must be delicious...addictive I gather
 

clefty

New member
We cannot even get grafted in him unless we do what he says.


unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven; Matthew 5:32.

unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven; Matthew 18:3.

unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart; Matthew 18:35.

unless you repent, you too will all perish; Luke 13:3.

unless they are born of water and the Spirit; John 3:5.

Unless I wash you, you have no part with me; John 13:8.

unless it dies; 1 Corinthians 15:36.



We can see PLAINLY that Jesus says UNLESS, so how does anyone get we have to do NOTHING?

We only have to believe that we have to do what Jesus says!

Yup...


We are actually grafted to produce fruit...and more like Him His not less...

"Go and sin no more" resonates the new covenant frequency by which we all harmonize...

"Go and sin no more" is the kick to our backside to breath our first breath of reborn life...not to live but because we are finally ALIVE

"Go and sin no more" is the anthem sung when on earth it will be done as it is heaven...DONE not just merely heard and believed
 

clefty

New member
It's not about proving to others, it's about one's internal change, and an inner change will bring an outward change. When you all gripe about taxes going to the poor, overly promoting guns and the death penalty, and demonizing anything that resembles 'a work', you are not resembling that righteousness of Christ.

James teaches that faith without works is a dead faith, and Paul teaches that works without faith profit nothing.

There is only one conclusion to the matter, and you all just do not want to accept it. The Reformers made short work of it, but you've all made a conundrum of the Scriptures.

And since I've brought up the Reformers, let's make note of the fact that they are the one's who authored the dogma of Faith Alone in the first place :AMR:
Is that not enough? Do you all really need more liberation from works? This is one of the key things I take issue with in Madism- you all do not appear to want anything other than separation from sacrifice, conviction, duty, and holy tradition- you want the cake and eat it to, and that is a dead Christianity.

Ahhh yes the struggle with works...

Indeed in their attempt to rid themselves of the works obligated them by the Church her peer pressure the poor fellows threw the baby out too...well not before they baptized it...

What the reformers forgot was that instead of merely reforming that which would not be changed back they should have made their efforts about restoration...TO HIM HIS...His works...His ways...cut all ties from the traditions established by men...but all things in His time

By this time Christendom had drifted so far from what was expected in scripture it was actually on another calendar...

More than forgiveness...more than a God of love...Luther was desperate to feel the peace and joy felt by a child who knows it is obedient to its real and approving parent...their actual rules...

TO DO HIS WILL...is the finest sacrament...approval such grace

"What must I do to be saved" was raped by the Church but HalleluYah the Spirit restores...
 

meshak

BANNED
Banned
Well, it seems that MADists cannot defend their claims.

This thread sure was insightful, if I say so myself:)
 
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