Limiting the Death of Christ

OZOS

Well-known member
Exactly, it states it right therein the verse ! Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

No one has denied that those who "being reconciled" are saved by His life, it's that you falsely conflate the world being reconciled to God, with those who choose to receive the reconciliation.

"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself (reconciliation #1 - God removes the debt) through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation (reconciliation #2 - we accept His gift of payment), namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself (reconciliation #1), not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation (reconciliation #1). Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God (reconciliation #2).'

The WHOLE WORLD (all men) have been reconciled to God by the death of His Son, having shed His blood for ALL sins. All men have been justified to receive His life (Rom 5:18). For ALL men were His enemies and condemned. For ALL men have sinned. Those who accept His reconciliation are those will "be reconciled to God".

You repeatedly choose to ignore the difference between what was done by God (reconciled the world unto Himself) and man's response (receive the reconciliation).

"And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation". Rom 5:11
 

beloved57

Well-known member
No one has denied that those who "being reconciled" are saved by His life, it's that you falsely conflate the world being reconciled to God, with those who choose to receive the reconciliation.

"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself (reconciliation #1 - God removes the debt) through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation (reconciliation #2 - we accept His gift of payment), namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself (reconciliation #1), not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation (reconciliation #1). Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God (reconciliation #2).'

The WHOLE WORLD (all men) have been reconciled to God by the death of His Son, having shed His blood for ALL sins. All men have been justified to receive His life (Rom 5:18). For ALL men were His enemies and condemned. For ALL men have sinned. Those who accept His reconciliation are those will "be reconciled to God".

You repeatedly choose to ignore the difference between what was done by God (reconciled the world unto Himself) and man's response (receive the reconciliation).

"And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation". Rom 5:11

Well if you believe that there are people Christ died for who are lost , yes you do deny it. Simply because those who were reconciled by His Death, and those saved by His Life are the very same !
 

OZOS

Well-known member
Well if you believe that there are people Christ died for who are lost , yes you do deny it.
Nope, but again, you have proven yourself to reject God's word on reconciliation, in favor of Calvin's false view of reconciliation. Jesus died for the sins of the world. This is the gospel message that YOU deny, and therefore having rejected the reconciliation. You have not received His life, and are void of the Spirit of God.
Simply because those who were reconciled by His Death, and those saved by His Life are the very same !
His life is given to those who "receive the reconciliation", just as the apostle Paul said.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Nope, but again, you have proven yourself to reject God's word on reconciliation, in favor of Calvin's false view of reconciliation. Jesus died for the sins of the world. This is the gospel message that YOU deny, and therefore having rejected the reconciliation. You have not received His life, and are void of the Spirit of God. His life is given to those who "receive the reconciliation", just as the apostle Paul said.

Yep. Whats the promise made to them in Rom 5:10 who had been reconciled to God by Christs Death ?
 

OZOS

Well-known member
Yep. Whats the promise made to them in Rom 5:10 who had been reconciled to God by Christs Death ?
There are two different groups being referenced in that verse. You don't see it, because you refuse to see it. Your stubborn, unbelieving heart, won't allow it.

Group 1 - All men are enemies of God (you deny this, and claim that only the "elect" are God's enemies).
Group 1 - All God's enemies (the whole world) are reconciled to God.

Group 2 - Those who receive the reconciliation ("being reconciled").
Group 2 - The "being reconciled" are saved by His life.

"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself (reconciliation #1 - God removes the debt) through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation (reconciliation #2 - we accept His gift of payment), namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself (reconciliation #1), not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation (reconciliation #1). Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God (reconciliation #2).'

Romans 5:10 has been fully exegeted to make it possible for you to comprehend, but again, your pride only sees one thing, that all those who were His enemies are now saved. That would make you a universalist.
 

OZOS

Well-known member
Name calling wont help you. Its the same group !

I was taught name calling by Jesus, and I use it against the same fools, blind guides, vipers, and sons of hell.

Oh, and it's NOT the same group.

Group 1 - All men are enemies of God (you deny this, and claim that only the "elect" are God's enemies).
Group 1 - All God's enemies (the whole world) are reconciled to God.

Group 2 - Those who receive the reconciliation ("being reconciled").
Group 2 - The "being reconciled" are saved by His life.

"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself (reconciliation #1 - God removes the debt) through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation (reconciliation #2 - we accept His gift of payment), namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself (reconciliation #1), not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation (reconciliation #1). Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God (reconciliation #2).'
 

beloved57

Well-known member
I was taught name calling by Jesus, and I use it against the same fools, blind guides, vipers, and sons of hell.

Oh, and it's NOT the same group.

Group 1 - All men are enemies of God (you deny this, and claim that only the "elect" are God's enemies).
Group 1 - All God's enemies (the whole world) are reconciled to God.

Group 2 - Those who receive the reconciliation ("being reconciled").
Group 2 - The "being reconciled" are saved by His life.

"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself (reconciliation #1 - God removes the debt) through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation (reconciliation #2 - we accept His gift of payment), namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself (reconciliation #1), not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation (reconciliation #1). Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God (reconciliation #2).'

You haven't been taught how to affirm truth from Rom 5:10. The same group is being referenced.
 

Right Divider

Body part
He is God in the flesh. Hebrews 1:3

I believe Knight started a post called "Who died on the cross". Perhaps it is still available. I explain all of this in that thread.

btw... R.C. Sproul clearly stated that God did not die for our sins. He claims that Jesus was not God, when he died. This is born out of the two nature heresy.

Jesus had the nature of God and took upon Himself the nature of a man. How is that not two natures?

I disagree with RCS and I also disagree with you on the natures.
 

OZOS

Well-known member
Jesus had the nature of God and took upon Himself the nature of a man. How is that not two natures?

I disagree with RCS and I also disagree with you on the natures.

You would have to prove it from the Bible, and that's not possible, since it teaches He had one nature.

Here is everything the Bible teaches about who Jesus is...

Who Died On The Cross?

"The divine nature isn’t capable of experiencing death" - Calvinist theologian R.C. Sproul

The god of Calvinism is a false god, for they emphatically deny that God died for your sins, and that He has come in the flesh in the person of Jesus Christ (2 John 1:7).

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." 1 Tim 3:16

God was made known (revealed) to us through the person of Jesus Christ. It is that person whom we must define as the Bible defines Him. Jesus is the revelation of God to man. He is God in the flesh.

"What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life-- and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us" 1 John 1:1-2

John tells us that the person that has been manifested (made known; revealed) was "with the Father". John is telling us that the person being made known is eternal. He was "with the Father" BEFORE being "manifested" (revealed; made known) to us. He is not a "new" person, or an "added" person, but God Himself in the flesh.

"But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law" Gal 4:4

"God sent forth". Paul tells us that the Son was sent, which indicates that He was with the Father BEFORE having been sent. The PERSON who was sent is God the Son. This is the PERSON who is manifested (made known; revealed) to us in the flesh.

"...who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men." Phil 2:6-7

As already noted, Jesus existed as God, that is, His PERSON is God, who took on the "form" (external appearance) of a bond-servant , and appeared in the "likeness" (image; resemblance) of men. Jesus is God in the flesh. That is His PERSON - His IDENTITY.

"For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh" Rom 8:3

Paul writes concerning the PERSON who was "sent". It is the Son, who was sent. The PERSON that came here, was "sent". He was "with the Father". And He came in the "likeness" (image; resemblance) of sinful flesh. He had no sin, yet His flesh was "like" (image; resemblance) that of sinful flesh.

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:14

John explains to us that the "Word" (who is God) "became flesh". There is nothing spoken here (or anywhere) that Jesus became a soul, or another "person", but that the PERSON (who is God) became flesh. The divine nature became flesh. Not "two natures", but One nature - God in the flesh.

"Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?" John 14:9

Jesus and the Father are One. The Father is God. Jesus is God in the flesh. Jesus said that to know Him is to know God. He did not say that to know Him is to know another person who was "added" to God.

"Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." Phil 2:8

Paul makes it clear that God came in "appearance as a man". Paul says that God is the One who humbled Himself to the point of death. He does not say that an "added" person died, but that God died on the cross.

"Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil" Heb 2:14

God took on "flesh and blood". He did not "add" another soul/spirit, mind, will, person, or identity. He is God in the flesh.

"Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me" Heb 10:5

Again, we see that God came into the world and lived in a "body" that was prepared for Him. Nothing stated about a soul/spirit, mind, will, identity, or distinct person being "added" to this body.

"in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high" Heb 1:2-3

His nature is that of God. One nature, one mind, one Soul/Spirit, One PERSON, One identity - Jesus is God in the flesh.

"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God" 1 John 4:2

The PERSON of Jesus Christ "CAME". He was with the Father and He CAME. He is not an "addition" to God, but God in a body prepared for Him, in the likeness of sinful flesh, the appearance of a man, that is flesh and blood, and the exact representation of God's nature.

The "creed" makers have manufactured a false Jesus, that is NOT God come in the flesh. They have a spirit that denies that Jesus has come in the flesh. They have no biblical evidence to support their two nature, double-minded, double-soul/spirit, double-identity Jesus.

I have laid out nearly every verse that explains who Jesus is regarding His true identity. They (Calvinists/Reformers) have nothing, because nothing to support their false Jesus exists.

It has already been shown that it is indeed God who became a man

God tasted death

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." Heb 2:9

Jesus (God in the flesh) was "made" lower than the angels. This verse clearly shows it is the same PERSON who was "made" lower. Not a new person, but the SAME PERSON who was "made" lower, by becoming a man, who suffered and experienced death for EVERY man (not just the "elect").

In order for God to be the perfect sacrifice for ALL men, He had to become like man, and to suffer as a man, in the weakness of human flesh.

"In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered." Heb 5:7-8

The writer of Hebrews points out that God, for a time, suffered in the flesh. It was HIS FLESH, not the flesh of an "added" person, but God in the flesh. This period of time were the days of "His flesh". God became a man, and learned what it was like to be in the flesh, through that which He suffered.

In order for God to become a man, He was born into this world as are all men, by having a body that grew in the womb of a woman.

"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." Matthew 1:23

Again, Jesus is God in the flesh. He came in a body prepared for Him Hebrews 10:5, born into this world of a virgin, being sent by God Himself Gal 4:4, in the likeness of sinful flesh Rom 8:3, yet without sin Heb 4:15. In His body, in the days of His flesh, lower than the angels, He learned and grew in wisdom like any man.

"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52

This is where the false teachers and creed-makers abandon all wisdom and understanding and attempt to recreate Jesus into a second distinct individual, not understanding what Paul says concerning God's ability to be "fashioned as a man who humbled Himself".

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." Phil 2:5-8

When Jesus "made Himself" a servant, having also been "made" in the likeness of men, and fashioned (appearance) as a man, He abandoned (voided) His reputation as God, and as a man humbled Himself unto death.

When Jesus came into this world, He was conceived of the Holy Spirit (God), and took on human flesh. As a human he experienced hunger, pain, weariness, and death. He submitted Himself to His Father's will at all times. Not out of reluctance, but because His will was to do the will of the Father.

Like all men, Jesus had a brain, heart, lungs, etc. Unlike other men, Jesus was God in the flesh. From the moment of conception Jesus was one Spirit with the Father, and whatever the Father revealed to the child or the man Christ Jesus, was not tainted by the wisdom of this world. All revelation that Jesus received came directly from the Father. Jesus was never a "natural man".

"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ." 1 Cor 2:9-16

This destroys the false teaching of Calvinism that Jesus has "two natures", two minds, two wills, and two distinct individual identities. He is God in human flesh that died on the cross for your sins, was buried and raised on the third day.
 

Right Divider

Body part
This destroys the false teaching of Calvinism that Jesus has "two natures", two minds, two wills, and two distinct individual identities. He is God in human flesh that died on the cross for your sins, was buried and raised on the third day.
You seem to think that everyone that believes that Christ had two natures is a Calvinist. I'm not a Calvinist and I believe that the Bible teaches that God in the flesh had a human nature in addition to His divine nature.

If not, then He was not a man at all. A man is NOT just the body he walks on the earth.

I'm curios how you explain this verse in light of a single nature:
Mar 13:32 KJV But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

P.S. I don't believe that Jesus has "two distinct individual identities".
 

OZOS

Well-known member
You seem to think that everyone that believes that Christ had two natures is a Calvinist. I'm not a Calvinist and I believe that the Bible teaches that God in the flesh had a human nature in addition to His divine nature.
I was re-posting an old post I wrote many years ago that was directed at Calvinist doctrine. There certainly are many others who teach the two nature Jesus.

If not, then He was not a man at all. A man is NOT just the body he walks on the earth.
Are you saying that Jesus had a man's soul/spirit?

I'm curios how you explain this verse in light of a single nature:

Mar 13:32 KJV But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

He emptied Himself of His divine knowledge. He chose what He would know.

P.S. I don't believe that Jesus has "two distinct individual identities".
:thumb:
 

Right Divider

Body part
I was re-posting an old post I wrote many years ago that was directed at Calvinist doctrine. There certainly are many others who teach the two nature Jesus.
Indeed there are.

Are you saying that Jesus had a man's soul/spirit?
How else is He a man? Just by "wearing a human body"?

He emptied Himself of His divine knowledge. He chose what He would know.
That's bad doctrine. How can God not know something?
 

OZOS

Well-known member
How else is He a man? Just by "wearing a human body"?
I respectfully answered your question. Answer mine.


That's bad doctrine. How can God not know something?
"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

Are you saying that Jesus is not God?

Nevertheless...

"Because they have forsaken Me and have made this an alien place and have burned sacrifices in it to other gods, that neither they nor their forefathers nor the kings of Judah had ever known, and because they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind" Jer 19:4-5

"And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” Heb 10:17

I covered all of this in my lengthy post. In fact, I addressed nearly every verse in the Bible concerning the nature of Jesus
 

Right Divider

Body part
I respectfully answered your question. Answer mine.
Yes, the Bible says "the man Christ Jesus". If Jesus only had a human body, He's not human.

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

Are you saying that Jesus is not God?
That's a dumb question. I've already made it clear that I believe that Jesus has two natures. Divine and human.

Nevertheless...

"Because they have forsaken Me and have made this an alien place and have burned sacrifices in it to other gods, that neither they nor their forefathers nor the kings of Judah had ever known, and because they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind" Jer 19:4-5

"And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” Heb 10:17
I have no idea what those have to do with this.

I covered all of this in my lengthy post. In fact, I addressed nearly every verse in the Bible concerning the nature of Jesus
Thanks.
 

OZOS

Well-known member
Yes, the Bible says "the man Christ Jesus". If Jesus only had a human body, He's not human.
So then, you do believe that Jesus had a human soul/spirit?

Then you cannot also say He did not have two minds, two wills, and two identities.

Either His nature was God in the flesh or He was two separate beings in one body.

The Bible does not teach that anywhere. In fact, it tells us the opposite.

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion (appearance) as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." Phil 2:5-8

"Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil" Heb 2:14

God took on "flesh and blood". He did not "add" another soul/spirit, mind, will, person, or identity. He is God in the flesh.

"Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me" Heb 10:5

Read my lengthy post. All of your questions are addressed there.

Jesus was sent. He came. HE is the one who is in the body of a man. He does not have two souls/spirits. He is born solely of the Holy Spirit. One individual. God in the flesh.

That's a dumb question. I've already made it clear that I believe that Jesus has two natures.
No it's not, you asked how can God not know something. I just showed you. Are you suggesting That Jesus gravitates from being God to man? Knowing things when He is God and not knowing when He is man? The verse YOU quoted said that the Son DOES NOT KNOW.
Divine and human.
He is human because He is in a body that is prepared for HIM, not for someone else and Him. HE is not an eternal "God/Man". That is Mormon doctrine. He does not have two beings in one body. He is solely, God in the flesh.


I have no idea what those have to do with this.
You asked how God cannot know something. What has never entered His mind and that which He chooses to no longer remember, are both examples of God not knowing.


I would have thought after all these years that people on TOL could learn to think logically. Guess not.
 
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