Learning More About God by reading the Torah

[jamie]

Ummm...ethnically He was of that tribe...by His mother...had to be...

But yes His Father was not, nor was anything He instituted at creation, such as His Laws...the very same ones revealed again for that church in the wilderness...nor can their method of administration be considered of that tribe...as even Moses wasn't...

The Father's firstborn son is Israel brought out of Egypt by Christ.

In 1 Corinthians 10:2-4 Paul said, "All were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ."

The church in the wilderness.

 

[Lilstu]

That's correct, the Father's firstborn son was Christian not Jewish.

Psalm 89
20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:

21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.

22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.

23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.

24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.

25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.

26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.

27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

 

[beameup]

Notice that it says with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Ephraim (now gentiles) MUST return to Judah for fulfilment of the covenant. Which is why He said He didn't come to do away with the law but to fulfill it, by bringing the gentiles into covenant, the same covenant of the Jews, now spiritually fulfilled but walked out in shoe leather, none the less, making of the TWO, ONE new man. Gentiles refusing to come in and stay in Ephraim are to whom He is going to say, "Get away from me, I never knew you." They are in for a shock. Those that keep the law and teach other men to keep it are the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Note it said, kingdom of heaven, the new SPIRITUAL covenant that requires the keeping of the law. So simple a child could understand it, if only a child would read. Peace

:chuckle:

Revelation 2:9

 

[RBBI]

And what is your point? That all Jews are of the synagogue of Satan, I suppose? Peace

 

[clefty]

And what is your point? That all Jews are of the synagogue of Satan, I suppose? Peace

Uh oh...careful..that there is hateful and bigoted...a bannable offense here at TOL...despite Him saying so and as did Luther and many others...

ANY who are opposed to Him are of the synagogue of Satan like those who have known the commandment yet turn back to their own like a dog to vomit...

Those that claim otherwise and insist on their separateness are dividing what He hath joined together...He made the two ONE in Him...

 

[TweetyBird]

You need to read the scriptures. If you want to read the TaNaKh, there is no problem with that. It is not the Talmud. I don't know where you are getting your ideas from. Read the Christian Old Testament or read the Jewish TaNaKh. The content of these scriptures is the same, while the book order or arrangement, or arrangement and book order, is different.

The acronym "TaNaKh" comes from the Talmud. It separates the OT into 3 parts. The OT is not separated into 3 parts.

 

[TweetyBird]

Deuteronomy 34:10 NASB - 10 Since that time no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

Moses is not considered "Nevi'im". That is why I have an issue with the term "TaNkH". It is inaccurate.

 

[TweetyBird]

Exodus 34:28 NASB - 28 So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Deuteronomy 4:13 NASB - 13 "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Deuteronomy 10:4 NASB - 4 "He wrote on the tablets, like the former writing, the Ten Commandments which the LORD had spoken to you on the mountain from the midst of the fire on the day of the assembly; and the LORD gave them to me.

Old covenant.

2 Corinthians 3:14 NASB - 14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.

Hebrews 8:13 NASB - 13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Old covenant is all "613" commandments, not just the 10.

 

[TweetyBird]

Torah was the books of Moses. Why reject Torah when it is part of the KJV? The dietary commands and sabbaths have been done away with, but the commandments have not been done away with. Righteousness is keeping the commandments of God. He who says, "I know him," but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Then you should be sacrificing animals for your sin, and doing ritual cleansings with sacrifices at the Temple for contamination of the flesh, etc. 613 is a whole lot of commandments that you are passing over to think you are keeping all of God's commandments.

 

[TweetyBird]

*[[Tit 3:5]] Complete Jewish Bible*
"he delivered us. It was not on the ground of any righteous deeds we had done, but on the ground of his own mercy. He did it by means of the mikveh of rebirth and the renewal brought about by the Ruach HaKodesh,"

The Greek reads washing (G3067 λουτρόν loutron) of regeneration (G3824 παλιγγενεσία paliggenesia), not mikveh. They are two completely unrelated processes. Regeneration is spiritual. A mikveh is physical and mystical.

 

[TweetyBird]

1 John 3:4

"Sin is defined as violation of Torah; conversely, "where there is no law, there is also no violation" (Romans 4:15)." (David H. Stern, Jewish New Testament Commentary)

That's not what the Greek states. Stern took so many liberties with the text, he completely changed the NT. Paul is showing that faith supersedes the Law of Moses in Rom 5.

Let me ask you a question. Why is it that if one does not believe in Jesus Christ for salvation, that one must walk in faith or they are not a child of God --- these are the most heinous sins of all, yet you insist that Torah is the end all definition of sin?

 

[TweetyBird]

Notice that it says with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Ephraim (now gentiles) MUST return to Judah for fulfilment of the covenant. Which is why He said He didn't come to do away with the law but to fulfill it, by bringing the gentiles into covenant, the same covenant of the Jews, now spiritually fulfilled but walked out in shoe leather, none the less, making of the TWO, ONE new man. Gentiles refusing to come in and stay in Ephraim are to whom He is going to say, "Get away from me, I never knew you." They are in for a shock. Those that keep the law and teach other men to keep it are the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Note it said, kingdom of heaven, the new SPIRITUAL covenant that requires the keeping of the law. So simple a child could understand it, if only a child would read. Peace

Ephraim is not the Gentiles. Who told this?

 

[Jacob]

1 John 3:4

"Sin is defined as violation of Torah; conversely, "where there is no law, there is also no violation" (Romans 4:15)." (David H. Stern, Jewish New Testament Commentary)

Yes.

 

[Jacob]

Ephraim (now gentiles) MUST return to Judah for fulfilment of the covenant.

I don't know what you are saying here or why you are saying it. My understanding is that Ephraim is not the Gentiles.

 

[TweetyBird]

Yes.

No, Torah does not completely define sin. It is inaccurate. If one keeps all the Mosaic law perfectly, they are still going to go to the bad place.

 

[Jacob]

The acronym "TaNaKh" comes from the Talmud. It separates the OT into 3 parts. The OT is not separated into 3 parts.

Please show. You have said this before. I have not read this in the Talmud.

The TaNaKh is the Torah, the Nevi'im, and the Kethuvim. This is the Hebrew Bible. I don't know anything about this being from the Talmud. This is about scripture. These are the writings that many Christians call the Old Testament. But Christians have a different book order and arrangement. The question is, which came first... the TaNaKh or the Old Testament? Judaism came first, and the Jewish Scriptures (the Torah or the TaNaKh, the Torah being the Jewish Bible). But the New Testament came before the Talmud.

 

[Jacob]

Moses is not considered "Nevi'im". That is why I have an issue with the term "TaNkH". It is inaccurate.

The Nevi'im is part of the TaNaKh.

Nevi'im
The Prophets

Joshua
Judges
1 Samuel
2 Samuel
1 Kings
2 Kings
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Ezekiel​

The Twelve Minor Prophets

Hosea
Joel
Amos
Obadiah
Jonah
Micah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zechariah
Malachi​

 

[Jacob]

Old covenant is all "613" commandments, not just the 10.

The Torah has 613 commands, or commandments.

 

[Jacob]

No, Torah does not completely define sin. It is inaccurate. If one keeps all the Mosaic law perfectly, they are still going to go to the bad place.

Sin is transgression of the law. Sin is lawlessness. I don't know what you mean by "the bad place".

See Romans 3:23 NASB and Romans 6:23 NASB.

 

[TweetyBird]

Sin is transgression of the law. Sin is lawlessness. I don't know what you mean by "the bad place".

Eternal torment in hell. Sin is not believing in Jesus Christ, not having faith in God, not loving one's brother. It does not matter how perfectly you think you are keeping the Law of Moses, it is not going to matter one iota to God in the end. He is only going to look at one's heart and whether or not it's been made pure and righteous in the blood of Christ. Moses is not going to help you at judgment.