Killer Whale

[lucy]

A wild animal is always a wild animal. You cannot domesticate a killer whale. It was just doing what killer whales do... hence the name, "killer whale" :duh:

The people who continue to purchase these animals and risk the lives of their handlers are the ones who should be held accountable. Sea World, etc. does not have to use animals like the killer whale, that are unpredictable wild animals- it's all about the money they get by using this particular animal in their shows. Why not stick with the less dangerous animals when you are having people interact with them? Do we see shows where people get in a pool with a great white shark and try to ride on its back? No, because that would be stupid.

I say, release the whale back into the wild where it belongs. Why should it be punished for man's stupidity?

 

[serpentdove]

"And I feel that is a very bad way to make decisions. What happens if something comes up that isn't in scripture?"

Whose feelings are we supposes to go on? Yours? Mine? The Bible says that the human heart is deceitful and wicked (Jer 17:9). Trust God. His heart is good. Scripture gives us all that we need for living (Pr 6:23; 2Pe 1:19).

"You still haven't said how you actually feel about the situation."

That's sort of what we've been discussing. I said earlier that I think people did wrong to keep this whale confined as they did. Nevertheless, the animal killed a human being so it must be put to death (Ex 21:28-29). The trainer went to a Sea World show when she was 9 years old. It was her dream to train these whales. I image many kids see this show and have the same dream. It's was a very sad situation.

 

[lucy]

Whose feelings are we supposes to go on? Yours? Mine? The Bible says that the human heart is deceitful and wicked (Jer 17:9). Trust God. His heart is good. Scripture gives us all that we need for living (Pr 6:23; 2Pe 1:19).


That's sort of what we've been discussing. I said earlier that I think people did wrong to keep this whale confined as they did. Nevertheless, the animal killed a human being so it must be put to death (Ex 21:28-29). The trainer went to a Sea World show when she was 9 years old. It was her dream to train these whales. I image many kids see this show and have the same dream. It's was a very sad situation.

You know, you have to use some common sense when you read the scripture! These laws were written to protect the people, not to abuse the animal. If a guy has domestic animal that he KNOWS it is dangerous, he has a responsibility to the public to keep it restrained safely or to destroy it if he can't keep the public safe from the animal. That is what the Bible is saying. If your animal kills somebody and you know that it had the capability of doing this and you had refused to keep it safely confined then you are MORE responsible. The killing of the animal is to prevent it from killing again.

And c'mon, people know which animals are dangerous! Killer Whales, sharks, a 2000 lb bull, etc. are dangerous animals. You don't put people in a "ring" with these animals without something potentially "bad" happening. The scriptural law was not written with this kind of human behavior in mind.
So No, Exodus does NOT apply to Sea World, etc. This is NOT a domesticated animal, and they knew the animal was dangerous. ALL Killer Whales are dangerous. Again DUH. Since they don't belong in a big swimming pool and God did not design them to act like a pet dog and interact with people, the people who put the trainers in danger are responsible. I think the trainers should also use a brain cell or two and refuse to interact with these animals unless they have a death wish or something.

The animal is not at fault. It was acting as a wild animal and that's the way God made the animal. Now had the animal been in the wild, and it was targeting humans specifically, for example as a food source, then yes, I would think the law would apply in, the same way when a lion or tiger becomes a man-killer, they are hunted and eliminated, as this is abnormal behavior.

 

[serpentdove]

"You know, you have to use some common sense when you read the scripture! These laws were written to protect the people, not to abuse the animal..."

No one argued that. We addressed this point earlier.

"The animal is not at fault."

The animal is responsible for killing a human being.

 

[serpentdove]

[Lev 26:21-22]

Good point.

I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate [Lev. 26:21–22].

"This is the third degree judgment. Plagues and wild beasts will decimate the population. All of this came upon them. Read in Judges where they travelled on the byways while the highways were unoccupied. Man has lost his dominion over nature."
McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (1:ix-444). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

 

[serpentdove]

The animal did exactly what he was programmed to do...

"Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man (Ge 9:5)."

Ge 9:1-6:

"[God says] I'm gonna require your life blood, that's really a synonym for your death. I'm gonna require your life blood. Require is a judicial term in Hebrew meaning compensation, recompense, satisfaction - literally to avenge. I'm gonna require compensation from you. And this is a divine death sentence...

...And not only humans, but the Lord first of all says "From every beast I will require it". From every beast. If an animal takes the life of a many, the life of that animal is to be taken. That animal has stepped across the boundary of fear and dread that animals should have toward man, and I require the life of that animal.

Exodus 21:28, "If an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox should surely be stoned, its flesh shall not be eaten, the owner of the ox shall go unpunished. If, however, an ox was previously in the habit of goring, and its owner has been warned, yet he doesn't confine it, and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned and its owner shall also be put to death". Hmm, better kill that ox. It could cost you your life. God will avenge the death of a man on the animal which has broken through the divine fence as it were of fear and terror to kill a man. So the destruction of that kind of animal receives divine sanction.

And God doesn't stop with animals. He says verse 5, "From every man's brother I will require the life of man". Man is included in this. Every man. From every man's brother, and that is an allusion to Cain killing Abel. And by the way, at the time he said this, there was only one father and three brothers. Killing a man is serious. Killing your brother is serious. "And I will require the life of man". Exodus 21:12, "He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death"..." full text: Life and Death in the New World by John MacArthur http://gty.org/Resources/Sermons/90-262_Life-and-Death-in-the-New-World

 

[Granite]

Yep. Let's just kill something. Killing seems to be the preferred solution to most problems you guys seem to encounter.

 

[lightbringer]

Yep. Let's just kill something. Killing seems to be the preferred solution to most problems you guys seem to encounter.

:thumb:

For ReptileBird any way...

 

[nicholsmom]

The problem is these aren't scientists keeping the whales. They are nothing more than amusement park operators that make money from the willingess of most of these intelligent animals to perform on command.

There is some research that gets funded but looking at the institute supported by Seaworld there are a whopping two papers published on Orcas and they both have to do with captive care only (reproduction and growth). Which is interesting I suppose except there is no reason to keep them in captivity for long periods other than to entertain people and make money. I see no scientific reason for Orcas to be kept.

Now that is disappointing

An orca is not a dog. You should NEVER release a dog or a pig into the wild. A DOMESTIC animal is one that has been bred for many generations to live with humans.

You mean like what they are doing at Sea World?

Dogs are no longer wild animals. They can still be dangerous, but they are not wild. The wildness has been bred out of them.

Gee, I guess you don't live in the country where folks drop off unwanted dogs. They turn wild soon enough :mmph: We had a whole pack of them roaming our area a couple of years ago. They killed sheep and chickens and generally terrorized the "neighborhood" for a week before they were destroyed by order of the sheriff.

Orcas are wild animals that have simply been captured and put into tanks. Getting a wild animal to cooperate is sometimes referred to as "taming" but in truth no wild animal is ever tamed,

If cats could read, they'd be nodding in agreement just now... :chuckle: What do you say about mustangs and bison? Monkeys? Rabbits?

Orcas are not in any way domesticated (nor will they ever be most likely).

I would agree - they require way too big a tank of sea water to make them much more than a hobby-animal.

They haven't been selectively bred for any length of time. Only a few animals in the world have ever been *domesticated* here's a list.

Just so you know, I never follow wiki links.

 

[Ktoyou]

Does it matter what God says:

“If an ox gores a man or a woman to death, then uthe ox shall surely be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be acquitted. But if the ox tended to thrust with its horn in times past, and it has been made known to his owner, and he has not kept it confined, so that it has killed a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned and its owner also shall be put to death (Ex 21:28-29)."

It would be wasteful not to eat the ox. This is the problem with some of the old law, do lacks sensibility. People should not go without meat unless the law is in effect to prevent disease, as is often the case. We have better assessment of animal illness today than in biblical times.

The law against pork was to prevent disease.

 

[Ktoyou]

Yep. Let's just kill something. Killing seems to be the preferred solution to most problems you guys seem to encounter.

Not to me, for what did the whale do? If they let it go, would it be a man eater? Usually whales do not prey on humans as sharks do. It also does not understand punishment, nor would its death make other whales think twice before killing humans.

 

[lightbringer]

Not to me, for what did the whale do? If they let it go, would it be a man eater? Usually whales do not prey on humans as sharks do. It also does not understand punishment, nor would its death make other whales think twice before killing humans.

:thumb: Finally a sensible person!

 

[Ktoyou]

I am amazed that people are shocked at this.
I mean it is called a KILLER Whale.
What did people think it was going to do, knit baby booties?

It might seem surprising, but Orcas do not usually attack people, even in the wild. Unlike sharks, they are usually not killers of humans; some brave or crazy persons swim with them in the ocean! No one does that with the big sharks. They do feed on seals, so an attack is certainly possible. I think here is an example of an animal becoming afraid, or confused. I do agree they should have adequate tank size. From what I read it seems they are holding off on the trainers being in the water with these animals until thing can be assessed.

 

[Alate_One]

Now that is disappointing

Hardly surprising though

You mean like what they are doing at Sea World?

They aren't breeding selectively. They're simply breeding and they've had perhaps two generations in captivity? If they were breeding for more docile malleable whales (which is the point of domestication) why on EARTH are they using this whale that is a known human attacker in their breeding program?

The only reason they are doing breeding is they've been banned from catching new Orcas from the wild. So the only way they can keep the cash flowing is breeding them in captivity but the gene pool is so small they need every individual they have.

You need at minimum 15 generations to get to even the most basic level of domestication. (At least that's what the Russian research on domestication of foxes showed). It took them 50 years to do it with foxes. With generation times in Orcas running about 20-30 years I know for a fact Orcas are not being domesticated, nor will they be anytime soon.

You do not domesticate an individual Orca. You may "tame" it get it used to working with people but it takes selective breeding for domestication.

Gee, I guess you don't live in the country where folks drop off unwanted dogs. They turn wild soon enough :mmph: We had a whole pack of them roaming our area a couple of years ago. They killed sheep and chickens and generally terrorized the "neighborhood" for a week before they were destroyed by order of the sheriff.

Oh we have plenty of dogs running loose in my area. They aren't wild in the same sense as a wolf is wild. They are missing quite a number of wild characteristics. Plus you can catch and tame them again relatively easily in most cases. In many ways they are more dangerous than wild animals because they have much less fear of humans than their wild counterparts meaning they are much much more prone to attack people.

If cats could read, they'd be nodding in agreement just now... :chuckle: What do you say about mustangs and bison? Monkeys? Rabbits?

I guess you've never seen or been near a real wild cat. An actual wild cat will claw your arms off rather than let you get close enough to pet or even feed it.

The cats we have are domesticated enough to tolerate us, though in many ways not as modified as dogs.

I don't believe any species of monkey has been domesticated.

Rabbits have been domesticated but there are certainly wild species of rabbits.

Mustangs are feral horses. They descend from domestic livestock. There are extremely few truly WILD horses left in the world only the Prezwalski qualifies as a truly wild horse (they have a different chromosome number than domestic horses). Its believed the wild progenitor species of domestic horses went extinct in the late middle ages. The rest of the "wild" horses in the world are, FERAL. i.e. a domestic animal that has reverted (at least partly genetically) to its wild state. They still retain a lot of peculiarities to the domestic version such that you can catch them and tame them relatively easily.

I don't know that bison were domesticated. Though I have heard they were hybridized with cattle.

Just so you know, I never follow wiki links.

What an irritating display of laziness.

Here in basic historical order from oldest to most recent:
Dog (Canis lupus familiaris)
Sheep (Ovis aries)
Goat (Capra aegagrus hircus)
Pig (Sus scrofa domestica)
Cow (Bos primigenius taurus)
Zebu (Bos primigenius indicus)
Cat (Felis catus)
Chicken (Gallus gallus domesticus)
Guinea pig (Cavia porcellus)
Donkey (Equus africanus asinus)
duck (Anas platyrhynchos domesticus)
Water buffalo (Bubalus bubalis)
Honey bee (Apis spp.)
Horse (Equus ferus caballus)
Dromedary Camel (Camelus dromedarius)
Reindeer (Rangifer tarandus)
Rock pigeon (Columba livia)
Goose (Anser anser domesticus)
Yak (Bos grunniens)
Bactrian camel (Camelus bactrianus)
Llama (Lama glama
Alpaca (Vicugna pacos)
Guineafowl (Numida meleagris)
Ferret (Mustela putorius furo)
Fallow Deer (Dama dama)
Muscovy Duck (Cairina moschata)
Indian Peafowl (Pavo cristatus)
Barbary Dove (Streptopelia risoria)
Banteng (Bos javanicus)
Gayal (Bos gaurus frontalis)
Mandarin Duck (Aix galericulata)
Turkey (Meleagris gallopavo)
Stingless Bee (Melipona beecheii)
Goldfish (Carassius auratus auratus)
European Rabbit (Oryctolagus cuniculus)
Mute Swan (Cygnus olor)
Japanese Quail (Coturnix japonica)
Common carp (Cyprinus carpio)
Canary (Serinus canaria)
Fancy rat (Rattus norvegicus)
Budgerigar (Melopsittacus undulatus)
Cockatiel (Nymphicus hollandicus)
Zebra Finch (Taeniopygia guttata)
Hamster (Mesocricetus auratus)
Domesticated silver fox (Vulpes vulpes)
Muskox (Ovibos moschatus)
Red Deer (Cervus elaphus)

 

[Ktoyou]

More on the Orca not attacking humans in the wild. They are related to dolphins. Wild killer whales are not considered a threat to humans.

Look at how they react to the king of sharks!

Orca attack on Great White

 

[Flipper]

I can't disagree with that, sadly. Oh yeah, you are a flaming moron.

If people cared what Exodus said, parents would love their children more, there would be fewer murders, stealing, and adultery.

The Taliban used to boast that you could leave an open bag filled with hundred dollar bills at the side of the Kabul/Peshawar highway in Afghanistan, and all the money would still be there two days later.

 

[Doug Wright]

It would be wasteful not to eat the ox. This is the problem with some of the old law, do lacks sensibility. People should not go without meat unless the law is in effect to prevent disease, as is often the case. We have better assessment of animal illness today than in biblical times.

The law against pork was to prevent disease.

When you say 'wasteful' you judge the law "judge and not doer of the Law". The reason; I cannot say more than what is revealed: NAMELY that it is to GLORIFY GOD. The result however is that neither the owner is rewarded for his possible deriliction, nor the victim in inciting any goring.

We have better assessment of animal illness today than in biblical times.

The law against pork was to prevent diseaseHow do you know this? I'm sure God is indebted to you to be set straight!

 

[The Berean]

Well the Orca was a full grown female while the shark was a juvenile threatening momma's baby. Most experts I've ready agree in a one-on-one encounter between a full grown great white and Orca the Great White has a huge advantage.

 

[Vaquero45]

"Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man (Ge 9:5)."

Ge 9:1-6:

"[God says] I'm gonna require your life blood, that's really a synonym for your death. I'm gonna require your life blood. Require is a judicial term in Hebrew meaning compensation, recompense, satisfaction - literally to avenge. I'm gonna require compensation from you. And this is a divine death sentence...

...And not only humans, but the Lord first of all says "From every beast I will require it". From every beast. If an animal takes the life of a many, the life of that animal is to be taken. That animal has stepped across the boundary of fear and dread that animals should have toward man, and I require the life of that animal.

Exodus 21:28, "If an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox should surely be stoned, its flesh shall not be eaten, the owner of the ox shall go unpunished. If, however, an ox was previously in the habit of goring, and its owner has been warned, yet he doesn't confine it, and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned and its owner shall also be put to death". Hmm, better kill that ox. It could cost you your life. God will avenge the death of a man on the animal which has broken through the divine fence as it were of fear and terror to kill a man. So the destruction of that kind of animal receives divine sanction.

And God doesn't stop with animals. He says verse 5, "From every man's brother I will require the life of man". Man is included in this. Every man. From every man's brother, and that is an allusion to Cain killing Abel. And by the way, at the time he said this, there was only one father and three brothers. Killing a man is serious. Killing your brother is serious. "And I will require the life of man". Exodus 21:12, "He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death"..." full text: Life and Death in the New World by John MacArthur http://gty.org/Resources/Sermons/90-262_Life-and-Death-in-the-New-World

None of that changes the fact that the killer whale did what killer whales are programmed to do.

Using an Ox to plow a field is a much different scenario from kissing a killer whale to wow a crowd. lol
One is a clever good idea for use of an animal if carefully done. The other is entertaining because it is so opposite of common sense and instinct. It's just like training a lion or bear, or those dudes you see who put their head in an aligator's mouth. I'm not really offended by the animal when the man gets hurt.

Is there a "stupidity" exception to the rule? Getting gored by a farm Ox or even attacked in the wild by a bear or whatever would make me fine with killing the animal. Lock the obviously and proven dangerous animal in a cage and yell "what this!" as you voluntarily jump in the cage with it, and you lost me. lol
I don't really care if they destroy it or not. Probably should, to save stupid people from themselves.

 

[serpentdove]

"If a dangerous animal has been tamed, such as the whale, but occasionally can revert back to its instinctual nature, who is to blame for putting that animal in that situation? Surely not the animal."

Yep. I understand that this trainer had a dangling pony tail which was prohibited when working with the whales. I'm not sure why--maybe because they react to lit like a fish reacts to a lure in the water. The woman was pulled under water by the pony tail. Very sad.

There will be a day when we can swim with the whales [1] (Isa 11:6), but that is not now. We are going to have to wait for our new heaven and new earth (Re 21:1).

[1] "...The chief characteristic of the new earth, as we have suggested, is the absence of the sea. This would automatically change the climate, the atmosphere, and the living conditions. It is impossible for the human mind to comprehend the great transformations which will take place in a new creation. The sea in the past has been a barrier and also a border for mankind, which in some cases has been good and in others bad. Also, the sea was an instrument of judgment at the time of the Flood. However, by the disappearance of the sea, the population on the earth can be doubled again and again because of the increase of the land surface."
McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (5:1063). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.