Just a System

Yorzhik

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I'm never really surprised to find that perspective in people who feel they've been on the wrong side of the system and don't have the experience to counter it or particular education in the whole of it...or maybe he was simply comparing it to the perfect. But he's wrong short of that and every system is short of that.
As someone who's been on the winning side of the big battles, I've lost some smaller ones and learned from my mistakes. I realize the system is unjust. The system is a game with unjust rules, and playing by them better than my opposition was the way to win. But that isn't justice.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
As someone who's been on the winning side of the big battles, I've lost some smaller ones and learned from my mistakes. I realize the system is unjust. The system is a game with unjust rules, and playing by them better than my opposition was the way to win. But that isn't justice.
As someone with a vastly greater amount of anecdotal experience, someone actually trained in the practice and educated in the particulars, having participated in the system at every level and having been required for years to study and advance my knowledge of the system, I realize you're just wrong. The system isn't a game, though some will always try to game the system.
 

Yorzhik

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
As someone with a vastly greater amount of anecdotal experience, someone actually trained in the practice and educated in the particulars, having participated in the system at every level and having been required for years to study and advance my knowledge of the system, I realize you're just wrong. The system isn't a game, though some will always try to game the system.
Far beyond anecdotal evidence, the numbers are on my side. Of course, I realize that someone as deep into the system as you would not realize what water even is.

So you can take your vast training and immersion into the system and compare it to my few anecdotes, and feel good about yourself. But the lives I saved because I won my cases are all because my attitude changed quickly enough to win by realizing how the system really worked.

I will concede one point. Since so many lives are ruined by the injustice of the system, calling it a game doesn't do the system justice. Call it something more like... a gauntlet.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Far beyond anecdotal evidence, the numbers are on my side.
Cardinal or ordinal? Else, sweet. Then post them, link to the source and lets' see what numbers and what they actually say.

Of course, I realize that someone as deep into the system as you would not realize what water even is.
I know that you should cut whatever you're having with a lot more of whatever water is.
So you can take your vast training and immersion into the system and compare it to my few anecdotes, and feel good about yourself.
Translation: you can take my experience and note that you have years and cases more of that, then note you had years of training in the particulars, the theory, etc. and feel pretty good about the chance that I have a decided objective advantage in evaluating the nature of the system.

But the lives I saved because I won my cases are all because my attitude changed quickly enough to win by realizing how the system really worked.
If you aren't a lawyer you aren't trying cases, so that must have something to do with personal matters where the courts were involved...I see whatever that was and raise you years as a lawyer handling an average caseload of over seventy cases relating to the VAWA act.

I will concede one point.
You seemed a little conceded. :eek:

Since so many lives are ruined by the injustice of the system, calling it a game doesn't do the system justice. Call it something more like... a gauntlet.
You can call it cheese, but I wouldn't try to eat it on a cracker. :nono:
 

Yorzhik

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LIFETIME MEMBER
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Cardinal or ordinal? Else, sweet. Then post them, link to the source and lets' see what numbers and what they actually say.
This would be the only thing in your post worth responding to. However, with what you said following it's clear we couldn't discuss the numbers:


Translation: you can take my experience and note that you have years and cases more of that, then note you had years of training in the particulars, the theory, etc. and feel pretty good about the chance that I have a decided objective advantage in evaluating the nature of the system.

If you aren't a lawyer you aren't trying cases, so that must have something to do with personal matters where the courts were involved...I see whatever that was and raise you years as a lawyer handling an average caseload of over seventy cases relating to the VAWA act.


Tell us more how you, a beneficiary of the system, can tell all of us, the victims of the system, how wonderful the system is.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
This would be the only thing in your post worth responding to.
Then I've lapped you. :eek:

Look, seriously, you're entitled to think and say anything that suits you. I'm just telling you how it goes beyond your apparently unfortunate experience.

However, with what you said following it's clear we couldn't discuss the numbers:
What numbers?

Tell us more
I could, but you're like some guy who's just been given an insight into the medical profession by his doctor, and can't bother to credit it because you've handed out a couple of aspirin and that's got to put you on par. :plain:

how you, a beneficiary of the system,
I chose to spend most of my career as a poverty lawyer, so outside of the general satisfaction I derived from helping people...
can tell all of us, the victims of the system, how wonderful the system is.
Victim? I thought you only just noted your victorious play within that system.

Or, like I said, whenever I run into someone who talks the way you do there's always bad grapes at the bottom of that barrel.
 

Yorzhik

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LIFETIME MEMBER
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I could, but you're like some guy who's just been given an insight into the medical profession by his doctor, and can't bother to credit it because you've handed out a couple of aspirin and that's got to put you on par. :plain:
This is a horrible analogy. It's saying that I'm on par with lawyers on how the system works. I've never claimed that, and I've never credited the lawyers I've learned from because they teach people that the system works, but what I've learned from them is the truth about how it doesn't work.

Victim? I thought you only just noted your victorious play within that system.

I chose to spend most of my career as a poverty lawyer, so outside of the general satisfaction I derived from helping people...[/quote]
You're confused by my dismay and also having won.

Here's a better analogy. It's like being comfortable in gulag while all the other prisoners are dieing in the most horrible ways... all because I know how to make perfect croissants and it's the wardens favorite snack. You on the other hand, think the gulag system is great - you joined the system in the infirmary and think it is a big help to all the prisoners because despite the torture of the gulag you keep the prisoners alive.

Or, like I said, whenever I run into someone who talks the way you do there's always bad grapes at the bottom of that barrel.
Could you be more clear about what you mean by saying this? bad grapes at the bottom of the barrel?
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
This is a horrible analogy. It's saying that I'm on par with lawyers on how the system works.
No, I didn't say you were on par with the doctor. I said you're telling someone in a position to know what he's talking about his business out of some anecdotal you think qualifies you to override the counsel. That's rarely a good idea.

I've never credited the lawyers I've learned from because they teach people that the system works, but what I've learned from them is the truth about how it doesn't work.
I don't care if you "credit" either. You're just not in a position to understand what you're criticizing meaningfully.

Here's a better analogy. It's like being comfortable in gulag while all the other prisoners are dieing in the most horrible ways...
Except that you're not dying and mostly those who do have it coming, unless you don't believe in the DP, or punishment for people who break the laws of the land.

You on the other hand, think the gulag system is great
I, on the other hand, understand there is no gulag. To me you're the blind man holding onto an elephants tail certain that you have a deadly snake in hand.

Could you be more clear about what you mean by saying this? bad grapes at the bottom of the barrel?
Sour grapes. People who sound like you almost always had a bad experience and project that onto the system because they don't have the exposure or instruction to contextualize it. They value and judge it through that myopic and mistaken lens.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
why would anybody have a bad experience with a system that wasn't flawed?
Because there's a difference between perfect and good. The best restaurants occasionally get an order wrong. The best surgeons make mistakes. Because systems are run by people and people don't always get a thing right.

Our system is predicated on that understanding, which is why we put standards and review in place to safeguard against it and to revisit when necessary.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Why would a good doctor carry malpractice insurance?

ooooh - i know this one!

pick me mr kotter, pick me!

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good doctors carry malpractice insurance to protect themselves from all the greedy scumbag lawyers out there :banana:
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
aww - that's not playing fair - ask a question then delete it and answer it at the same time :nono:
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
ooooh - i know this one!

pick me mr kotter, pick me!
good doctors carry malpractice insurance to protect themselves from all the greedy scumbag lawyers out there :banana:
Anyway, this is funny, because I changed the answer within a minute, realizing that someone who wasn't serious would try some version of what you spewed out as quickly as you could manage to hit send.

The answer is: because there's a difference between perfect and good, just as there's a difference between a reasoned, substantive answer to a thing and what you mostly manage. The best restaurants occasionally get an order wrong. The best surgeons make mistakes. Because systems are run by people and people don't always get a thing right. Our system is predicated on that understanding, which is why we put standards and review in place to safeguard against it and to revisit when necessary.

aww - that's not playing fair - ask a question then delete it and answer it at the same time :nono:
Supra.

 
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