John 20:28 and the Trinity

[Apple7]

This is not true, you just wish to ignore and interpret the verses differently to how they read when they speak about Satan in person post Jesus death, 2 Corinthians 11:14 being one of those verse. (1 Peter 5:8)

Neither of those passages even remotely describes Satan as being present.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

Are you suggesting that it is correct? Are you suggesting that the author got it correct, and that the Hebrew is incorrect?

I am suggesting that the translation and commentary on Psalm 8:5 given by the writer to the Hebrews in Hebrews 2:5-10 is correct and an excellent translation and a very good and important exposition, while your interpretation and exposition of Psalm 8:5 is faulty and ignores what the writer to the Hebrews clearly states. Your superficial assessment of the Hebrew meaning by using two other passages is faulty as it does not properly consider the context and teaching of Psalm 8:5. Your persistence on this astounds me, and your usual diversionary tactics makes me disappointed but I will leave this now, and if history repeats itself then in another year I anticipate you will use this same faulty exposition on Psalm 8:5 again.

Deal with Jesus' deity.

There is One God, the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[NWL]

When I said Luke 10, I meant Luke 10...not just one out-of-context passage, chap.

You have already proven legions of times that the witness-cult that you adhere to, does NOT bother to use context...thus, you are not conditioned to use context.

Pretty simple concept.

Luke 10.1 - 20

And after these things, the Lord also appointed seventy others, and sent them two by two before His face into every city and place, even to where He was about to come. Therefore He said to them, Indeed, the harvest is much, but the laborers are few. Therefore, pray to the Lord of the harvest, that He send out workers into His harvest. Go! Behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of wolves. Do not carry a purse, nor a moneybag, nor sandals; and greet no one by the way. And into whatever house you may enter, first say, Peace to this house. And if a son of peace is truly there, your peace shall rest on it; but if not so, it shall return to you. And remain in the same house, eating and drinking the things shared by them; for the laborer is worthy of his hire. Do not move from house to house. And into whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat the things set before you. And heal the sick in it, and say to them, The kingdom of God has drawn near to you. But into whatever city you enter, and they do not receive you, going out into its streets, say, Even the dust clinging to us out of your city, we shake off against you! Yet know this, that the kingdom of God has drawn near to you! And I say to you that it shall be more bearable for Sodom in that day than for that city! Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the works of power which have been occurring in you had occurred in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago sitting in sackcloth and ashes! But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon in the Judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, were you not exalted to the heaven? "To hell you will be thrust down!" (Isa. 14.13, 15) The one hearing you hears Me, and the one rejecting you also rejects Me, and the one rejecting Me also rejects the One having sent Me. And the seventy returned with joy, saying, Lord, even the demons are subject to us through Your Name. And He said to them, I saw Satan falling out of Heaven as lightning! Behold, I have given you the authority to tread on snakes and scorpions, and on all the power of the hostile one , and nothing shall hurt you, no, never! But stop rejoicing in this, that the spirits submit to you. But rather rejoice that your names are written in Heaven.


The 'Power of Satan' is referred to numerous things in this passage:

• Demons
• Snakes & Scorpions
• The spirits

Is it actually possible for you to reply to me without a post full of imagined assumptions.

The chapter at no point states or even implies that Demons are the power of Satan, neither does it say the Demons are the ones referred to as the serpents. In fact, a simply read of the chapter, a thing you accused me of ignoring, plainly shows the scorpions are the people of Israel whom God was sending the mentioned men.

(Luke 10:1-3, 17-19) "..After these things the Lord designated 70 others and sent them out by twos ahead of him into every city and place where he himself was to go. 2 Then he said to them: “Yes, the harvest is great, but the workers are few. Therefore, beg the Master of the harvest to send out workers into his harvest. 3 Go! Look! I am sending you out as lambs in among wolves...17 Then the 70 returned with joy, saying: “Lord, even the demons are made subject to us by the use of your name.” 18 At that he said to them: “I see Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven. 19 Look! I have given you the authority to trample underfoot serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing at all will harm you.."

Jesus sent 70 men among Israel, this resembles when God sent Ezekiel out among the rebellious nation of Israel to preach and God referred the men of Israel as scorpions:

(Ezekiel 2:3-7) "..He [God] went on to say to me: “Son of man, I am sending you to the people of Israel, to rebellious nations that have rebelled against me. They and their forefathers have transgressed against me down to this very day.[/I][/B] 4 I am sending you to sons who are defiant and hardhearted, and you must say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says.’ 5 As for them, whether they listen or refuse to listen—for they are a rebellious house—they will certainly know that a prophet was among them. 6 “But you, son of man, do not be afraid of them, and do not be afraid of their words, although you are surrounded by briars and thorns and are dwelling among scorpions. Do not be afraid of their words, and do not be terrified by their faces, for they are a rebellious house. 7 You must speak my words to them, whether they listen or not, for they are a rebellious people.."

Again, nothing in the verse states that Demons are the scorpion, scripture (Ezekiel 2:3-7) supports that scorpions refer to Man and not what you claim.

You've yet to show me a scripture that shows Demons being called Satan's power, please demonstrate where it does in Luke 10. Simply quoting scripture without putting pen to paper to exegete exactly how and where the verses show what you claim is futile.

Your idea that random verses that speak of Satan power do not directly refer to only Demons.

 

[NWL]

This is not true, you just wish to ignore and interpret the verses differently to how they read when they speak about Satan in person post Jesus death, 2 Corinthians 11:14 being one of those verse. (1 Peter 5:8)

Neither of those passages even remotely describes Satan as being present.

Really?

You say Satan was bound at Jesus death, 2 Cor 11:14 states Satan himself transforms into an Angel of light. Can someone who is really bound and has no power really transform and disguise himself as an Angel of light? Nope! I don't know about you, but when a scripture state a person himself does something I'm not going to interpet that as that person NOT doing the action that he is described as doing HIMSELF!

(2 Corinthians 11:14) "..And no wonder, for Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light..."

Satan is spoken of as walking about looking to devour people and yet he is somehow bound and powerless, yeah right :hammer: .

(1 Peter 5:8) "..Keep your senses, be watchful! Your adversary, [the] Devil, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour someone.." (insertions mine)

 

[Dartman]

My hand would point to the only true me which would do nothing to demonstrate that my hand was not me....

This is makes no sense. Your attempt to rationalize the words Jesus actually said, and transform his words into something impossible is sad.

and the scripture tells us directly that Jesus created all things things,

No, Scripture tells us that Jesus created the cosmos in which we live, and the NT was written. Specifically, the "thrones, principalities, powers and dominions". Jesus the Christ has formed the civilization in which we live, and in which the NT was written.

Before Jesus was given "all power, and all authority" he didn't create anything. Jesus stated it THIS way,
John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh even until now, and (now) I work.




Scripture tells us VERY specifically that JEHOVAH alone created the universe, and Jesus is His "servant".

Isa 42:1-8 Behold, My servant, whom I uphold; My chosen, in whom My soul delighteth: I have put My spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth.
4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.
5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; He that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house.
8 I am Jehovah, that is My name; and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise unto graven images.

Acts 4:24-30 And they, when they heard it, lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, O Lord, thou that didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that in them is:
25 who by the holy spirit, (by) the mouth of our father David thy servant, didst say, Why did the Gentiles rage, And the peoples imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against His Anointed:
27 for of a truth in this city against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together,
28 to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy council foreordained to come to pass.
29 And now, Lord, look upon their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness,
30 while Thy stretchest forth Thy hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Thy holy servant Jesus.

I would understand this misunderstanding better if it weren't for the many direct statements as to the whom of whom Jesus actually was. Such as where he is designated "the Word was God" and "I am the first and the last" and "the mighty God" and "without him was not anything made that was made" and "Who is this King of Glory? The LORD of Hosts..."

All twisted interpretations..... not one "direct statement".
However, there ARE many direct statement that prove Christ's God is "the ONLY true God", "There is ONE God, and ONE mediator BETWEEN God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus", "but to us there is but ONE GOD, the Father"... "and ONE LORD, Jesus Christ"

I have observed how difficult it is to overcome the trinitarian brainwashing. I don't know personally, since I have believed the truth all my life. But, about half of the people in my congregation, (which is roughly 200 members), are converted trinitarians. The percentage of "oneness" believers is WAY smaller than "trinitarian" (estimates I have seen are 2 billion trinitarians, VERY roughly, 100 million NON-trinitarians, of which less than half are "oneness").... in fact, I don't remember ever encountering any .... I may have merely misunderstood which Error they had accepted, however.

 

[7djengo7]

I had written to you:

You say that Satan has been bound, and that he doesn't blind anybody's mind now...

And your response was:

Where was that stated?

Really? You don't remember what you stated?

First, you said, here, that Satan was bound at the cross:

Satan was bound at The Cross.

And second, you said, here, that Satan does not have the power to blind the hearts and minds of the people:

So....no, Satan does not have the power to blind the hearts and minds of the people...but Jesus, as God, most certainly does...

Was Satan bound at the cross, or was he not? Which is it?
Does Satan blind anybody's mind now, or does he not? Which is it?

 

[7djengo7]

It proves my point quite well.

Proves your "point" well to whom? To the majority of rational people who know that Paul is referring to Satan, rather than to Jesus, in his phrase, 'the god of this world'?

Your "point" has, indeed, been asserted (though not all too well (indeed, with much sloppiness and incoherence)) by you. But, since your "point" is a falsehood, why, I, for one, can't see how it can be proved, unless it is possible for falsehood to be proved? Would you say that falsehood can be proved?

What you're basically saying, about 2 Corinthians 4:4, is

"See, IF you take Paul, there, to be referring to Jesus, instead of to Satan, as "the god of this world" (the way I, Apple7, do), THEN you have, in the verse, a potent scriptural proof that Jesus is God."​

But, see, you're problem is that, as you've consistently demonstrated thus far, you have NO potent scriptural proof for your claim that Paul was referring to Jesus, instead of to Satan, by the phrase "the god of this world", and so, any rational person will understand that there is no reason to think of 2 Corinthians 4:4 as an additional Scripture proof-text for Trinitarianism.

In short, you've, thus far, failed to provide so much as a shred of "potent scriptural proof" for your claim that 2 Corinthians 4:4 is a "potent scriptural proof" of Jesus' deity.

The truth of Trinitarianism doesn't stand or fall on, nor need help from asinine, and patently false, claims such as yours. Perhaps you are a crypto-anti-Trinitarian, trying to influence people away from, or against, Trinitarianism, by means of bogus ploys even a child could see through?

 

[7djengo7]

One verse does NOT constitute context.

Since I know that you're merely having recourse to a common ploy in your incantation--your invocation of the word "context" as a meaningless slogan--I well understand that you cannot meaningfully answer these questions, but I'm going to ask you them, anyway, so that you can observe, and reflect on, your own inability to meaningfully answer them:

1. What, exactly, would you say constitutes a verse?
2. Exactly how many verses would you say constitute context?

 

[Apple7]

Satan is spoken of as walking about looking to devour people and yet he is somehow bound and powerless, yeah right :hammer: .

(1 Peter 5:8) "..Keep your senses, be watchful! Your adversary, [the] Devil, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour someone.." (insertions mine)

1 Peter 5.8


νηψατε γρηγορησατε ο αντιδικος υμων διαβολος ως λεων ωρυομενος περιπατει ζητων καταπιειν

nēpsate grēgorēsate ho antidikos hymōn diabolos hōs leōn ōryomenos peripatei zētōn tina katapiein

Be sober-minded, watch, the adversary devil of you walks about in the same manner as a roaring lion seeking whom to devour;


This passage does not refer to ‘The Devil’ himself, for several reasons:

• ‘Diabolos’ is anarthrous (i.e. it lacks a preceding Greek definite article - hence your unwarranted ignorance to artificially insert 'the'). Thus, rather than referring to ‘The Devil’ it refers to ‘A devil’, a demon – of which, the NT often refers to demons as devils.

• ‘Ho antidikos’ (the adversary) is used in only one other NT passage, Mat 5.25, and is in the context of being thrown into prison.

• The key word ‘hōs’ literally means ‘in the same manner as’, and is used to describe demons in Revelation, ‘in the same manner as’ a lion (Rev 9.8).

• This passage does not pertain to 'The Devil"....but 'A devil'...i.e. a demon...


What can you do now, chap?

 

[Apple7]

Really?

You say Satan was bound at Jesus death, 2 Cor 11:14 states Satan himself transforms into an Angel of light. Can someone who is really bound and has no power really transform and disguise himself as an Angel of light? Nope! I don't know about you, but when a scripture state a person himself does something I'm not going to interpet that as that person NOT doing the action that he is described as doing HIMSELF!

(2 Corinthians 11:14) "..And no wonder, for Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light..."

The Greek verb, μετασχηματίζεται, literally means 'to change outward appearance after a change.'

Thus...what change occurred to Satan that caused him to change his outward appearance?

Think hard, witness...

 

[Apple7]

Greetings again Apple7, I am suggesting that the translation and commentary on Psalm 8:5 given by the writer to the Hebrews in Hebrews 2:5-10 is correct and an excellent translation and a very good and important exposition, while your interpretation and exposition of Psalm 8:5 is faulty and ignores what the writer to the Hebrews clearly states. Your superficial assessment of the Hebrew meaning by using two other passages is faulty as it does not properly consider the context and teaching of Psalm 8:5. Your persistence on this astounds me, and your usual diversionary tactics makes me disappointed but I will leave this now, and if history repeats itself then in another year I anticipate you will use this same faulty exposition on Psalm 8:5 again.There is One God, the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

If Hebrews chapter 2 is correct in your eyes, then chapter 1 must likewise be absolutely correct, as well...

Heb 1.6 And again, when He brought the First-born into the world, He said, "And let all the angels of God worship Him."

 

[Apple7]

Is it actually possible for you to reply to me without a post full of imagined assumptions.

The chapter at no point states or even implies that Demons are the power of Satan, neither does it say the Demons are the ones referred to as the serpents. In fact, a simply read of the chapter, a thing you accused me of ignoring, plainly shows the scorpions are the people of Israel whom God was sending the mentioned men.

The Triune God of the Holy Bible has over 1,000 names, titles and epithets.

The Devil has over 100 names, titles and epithets.

Demons have dozens of names, titles and epithets.

Don't act so surprised all the time, chap.

 

[Apple7]

(Luke 10:1-3, 17-19) "..After these things the Lord designated 70 others and sent them out by twos ahead of him into every city and place where he himself was to go. 2 Then he said to them: “Yes, the harvest is great, but the workers are few. Therefore, beg the Master of the harvest to send out workers into his harvest. 3 Go! Look! I am sending you out as lambs in among wolves...17 Then the 70 returned with joy, saying: “Lord, even the demons are made subject to us by the use of your name.” 18 At that he said to them: “I see Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven. 19 Look! I have given you the authority to trample underfoot serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing at all will harm you.."

Jesus sent 70 men among Israel, this resembles when God sent Ezekiel out among the rebellious nation of Israel to preach and God referred the men of Israel as scorpions:

(Ezekiel 2:3-7) "..He [God] went on to say to me: “Son of man, I am sending you to the people of Israel, to rebellious nations that have rebelled against me. They and their forefathers have transgressed against me down to this very day.[/I][/B] 4 I am sending you to sons who are defiant and hardhearted, and you must say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says.’ 5 As for them, whether they listen or refuse to listen—for they are a rebellious house—they will certainly know that a prophet was among them. 6 “But you, son of man, do not be afraid of them, and do not be afraid of their words, although you are surrounded by briars and thorns and are dwelling among scorpions. Do not be afraid of their words, and do not be terrified by their faces, for they are a rebellious house. 7 You must speak my words to them, whether they listen or not, for they are a rebellious people.."

Again, nothing in the verse states that Demons are the scorpion, scripture (Ezekiel 2:3-7) supports that scorpions refer to Man and not what you claim.

You've yet to show me a scripture that shows Demons being called Satan's power, please demonstrate where it does in Luke 10. Simply quoting scripture without putting pen to paper to exegete exactly how and where the verses show what you claim is futile.

Your idea that random verses that speak of Satan power do not directly refer to only Demons.

Rev 9 destroys your 'argument'...

 

[Apple7]

I had written to you:



And your response was:


Really? You don't remember what you stated?

First, you said, here, that Satan was bound at the cross:



And second, you said, here, that Satan does not have the power to blind the hearts and minds of the people:



Was Satan bound at the cross, or was he not? Which is it?
Does Satan blind anybody's mind now, or does he not? Which is it?

Yawn....you got a point coming, or not?

 

[Apple7]

Since I know that you're merely having recourse to a common ploy in your incantation--your invocation of the word "context" as a meaningless slogan--I well understand that you cannot meaningfully answer these questions, but I'm going to ask you them, anyway, so that you can observe, and reflect on, your own inability to meaningfully answer them:

1. What, exactly, would you say constitutes a verse?
2. Exactly how many verses would you say constitute context?

More than one.

 

[Apple7]

Proves your "point" well to whom? To the majority of rational people who know that Paul is referring to Satan, rather than to Jesus, in his phrase, 'the god of this world'?

Your "point" has, indeed, been asserted (though not all too well (indeed, with much sloppiness and incoherence)) by you. But, since your "point" is a falsehood, why, I, for one, can't see how it can be proved, unless it is possible for falsehood to be proved? Would you say that falsehood can be proved?

What you're basically saying, about 2 Corinthians 4:4, is

"See, IF you take Paul, there, to be referring to Jesus, instead of to Satan, as "the god of this world" (the way I, Apple7, do), THEN you have, in the verse, a potent scriptural proof that Jesus is God."​

But, see, you're problem is that, as you've consistently demonstrated thus far, you have NO potent scriptural proof for your claim that Paul was referring to Jesus, instead of to Satan, by the phrase "the god of this world", and so, any rational person will understand that there is no reason to think of 2 Corinthians 4:4 as an additional Scripture proof-text for Trinitarianism.

In short, you've, thus far, failed to provide so much as a shred of "potent scriptural proof" for your claim that 2 Corinthians 4:4 is a "potent scriptural proof" of Jesus' deity.

The truth of Trinitarianism doesn't stand or fall on, nor need help from asinine, and patently false, claims such as yours. Perhaps you are a crypto-anti-Trinitarian, trying to influence people away from, or against, Trinitarianism, by means of bogus ploys even a child could see through?

Rather than to continue stumbling over your own words...just google for a plagiarized rebuttal for 2 cor 4.4...

 

[way 2 go]

Context, that you OMIT, informs the reader that Satan hindered Paul THROUGH the Jews.

Therefore, Satan was NOT present.

yes , satan hindered Paul,
via the Jews is conjecture and still not a how, the Jews are a who .

1Th 2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.

Context states that it was Satan, himself, who stood against Israel....just as we would expect in pre-Cross scripture.

you said "How, EXACTLY, did Satan 'hinder' them? "

1Ch 21:1 Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel.

dose not say how , says who .

 

[Apple7]

By implication by Yahweh Exo 12:12.

God was not here referring to his anegls, or men or animals, thus through the power of deduction it only leaves demons that the gods refer to, the same Egyptian gods that no doubt empowered the egpytian men to turn a stick into a snake and water into blood as Moses and Aaron did.

Who was God referring to when he mentioned gods here?

Ever heard of CONTEXT, chap?

Context NEVER mentions demons.

Do yourself a big favor and actually look up the term in your example...

 

[7djengo7]

Yawn....you got a point coming, or not?

The point is that now everyone reading this forum can see that you must needs embarrass yourself more and more, as you've thus far done, in trying to defend your asinine and false claim that Paul was referring to Jesus, rather than to Satan, as "the god of this world". All my questions are still there, that I asked you, and all your stonewalling against them is still there, too. So, yeah. But, go ahead, keep on meaninglessly chanting the word "context" whenever you can't rationally respond to rational, Scriptural objections to your claim--I'll bet everybody else is just plain too simple and stupid to see through that ploy, right? After all, you're that one guy who's eminently capable of, for no reason, pasting huge blocks of Greek text into forum posts, with a self-satisfied grin, saying, "So there!"

 

[Apple7]

yes , satan hindered Paul,
via the Jews is conjecture and still not a how, the Jews are a who .

1Th 2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.

Context spanks you, yet again...


Adding context…

For, brothers, you became imitators of the assemblies of God being in Judea in Christ Jesus, because you also suffered these things by your own fellow countrymen, as they did also by the Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, also having driven us out, and not pleasing God, and being contrary to all men, hindering us from speaking to the nations in order that they be saved, to the filling up of their sins always. But the wrath to the end is come on them. But, brothers, we being taken away from you for an hour's time, in presence, not in heart, we were much more eager with much desire to see your face. Because of this, we desired to come to you, truly I, Paul, both once and twice; but Satan hindered us. (1 Thes 2.14 – 18)


As we can see by adding context, this ‘hindering’ is applied to what the Jews (plural) did in obstructing Paul.