John 10:30 – Jesus is The Son of God

freelight

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Shamballa........

Shamballa........

Zeke said:
Of coarse its all based on the assumption promulgated by western culture that these stories actually belong to the Hebrews historically which is highly unlikely, which throws a different light on the whole charade fed to the western mindset and the historical viability of any of it being a truth one can stand on literally.
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:) ;)

Yes,....as you know I play my role as expounder, philosopher and artist in the venue of 'creative dialogue'. We must operate within the paramaters however of the religious tradition and its terms when engaging discussion, no matter if our stories are more or less historical or mythological constructs. The Unitarian/Trinitarian debate is one subject I find most fascinating, beyond the mere doctrinal import on whether it affects the over-all strata of the world we live in, individually or collectively. Since many focus on how to 'interpret' or 'dissect' Jesus as if on a theological operating table, I find Jesus perhaps is the one suffering at the expense of the theologians or religious surgeons spin-doctoring their Christology to peer-review perfections. I'd grant much more liberty to a more libertarian-gnostic-theosophical approach here (peek a boo :) ), and like yourself considers more the esoteric allegorical aspects or truths being 'related' behind the memes and images. (smoke screen and mirrors?) Its all 'fluff' anyways, after you pierce thru the 'cosmetics', to get to the soul gems and spiritual treasures at the root or heart of the mythos, and how it reflects the inner castle of your own kingdom of heaven within. - mystics all speak the same language, since they are remembering their true homeland, the heart of God/infinity/cosmos.

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Bright Raven

Bright Raven

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God's Truth said:
This scripture is about the saved---

Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.


When a person is saved they receive the Holy Spirit who is the Spirit of God the Father.
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Sorry, that scripture says nothing about the Holy Spirit being God. This shows the separation of Jesus, the Spirit and the Father;

Matthew 3:16-17 King James Version (KJV)

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
 
freelight

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Retake on claims of the Trinity......

Retake on claims of the Trinity......

Bright Raven said:
Sorry, that scripture says nothing about the Holy Spirit being God. This shows the separation of Jesus, the Spirit and the Father;

Matthew 3:16-17 King James Version (KJV)

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
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Whoa BR,.....this seems very odd of you to say if you're a Trinitarian,....the Holy Spirit is not 'God'? wow. While you may not believe the way GT believes about the Spirit, the Trinity fully assumes 3 divine persons in the one Godhead. So by its formulation/profession...the HS is 'God', but is not the Father or the Son. But getting away from these 'human assumptions' for the moment,....it remains a truth that 'God' is Spirit. Spirit is God's nature, who is a Spirit-Being or Personality. Therefore it would not be wrong in some cases to assume that the Spirit of God is the Spirit of God the Father (even the Spirit of Christ) since there is only One Infinite Spirit anyways, that all divine persons share as part of their nature, EVEN IF you want to assume the HS has his own unique personality, separate and distinct from the other persons in the Godhead. They are all ONE, no matter how you slice or dice them.

Actually some of this Trinitarian stuff is more con-fusing than anything, for it prescribes certain limitations or definitions upon a Supreme Deity that is truly INFINITE, packaging 'God' more or less. So, it doesn't fly really when considering some seriously spiritual or philosophical speculations, unless you can rationally explain such. Again, God is Spirit. Infinite Spirit! - the Spirit of God is also God's power, breath, active-force, dynamic influence, etc. All divine persons in any assumed 'Godhead' naturally all share the SAME SPIRIT-NATURE (one essence). We could go in cirlces here, as most Unitarian/Trinitarian/Modalist debates do,....don't git too dizzy :)

And while you're at it,


Happy New Year!
 
Bright Raven

Bright Raven

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freelight said:
Whoa BR,.....this seems very odd of you to say if you're a Trinitarian,....the Holy Spirit is not 'God'? wow. While you may not believe the way GT believes about the Spirit, the Trinity fully assumes 3 divine persons in the one Godhead. So by its formulation/profession...the HS is 'God', but is not the Father or the Son. But getting away from these 'human assumptions' for the moment,....it remains a truth that 'God' is Spirit. Spirit is God's nature, who is a Spirit-Being or Personality. Therefore it would not be wrong in some cases to assume that the Spirit of God is the Spirit of God the Father (even the Spirit of Christ) since there is only One Infinite Spirit anyways, that all divine persons share as part of their nature, EVEN IF you want to assume the HS has his own unique personality, separate and distinct from the other persons in the Godhead. They are all ONE, no matter how you slice or dice them.

Actually some of this Trinitarian stuff is more con-fusing than anything, for it prescribes certain limitations or definitions upon a Supreme Deity that is truly INFINITE, packaging 'God' more or less. So, it doesn't fly really when considering some seriously spiritual or philosophical speculations, unless you can rationally explain such. Again, God is Spirit. Infinite Spirit! - the Spirit of God is also God's power, breath, active-force, dynamic influence, etc. All divine persons in any assumed 'Godhead' naturally all share the SAME SPIRIT-NATURE (one essence). We could go in cirlces here, as most Unitarian/Trinitarian/Modalist debates do,....don't git too dizzy :)

And while you're at it,


Happy New Year!
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The Holy Spirit is God, just not God the Father. GT is a modalist.
 
God's Truth

God's Truth

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Bright Raven said:
Sorry, that scripture says nothing about the Holy Spirit being God. This shows the separation of Jesus, the Spirit and the Father;

Matthew 3:16-17 King James Version (KJV)

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
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There is only One Spirit.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit,

Ephesians 2:18
For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.


Think about that for awhile.
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
freelight said:
SINCE the Father and the Son are ONE in mind, spirit and will,...when one speaks the other also does since they are One Voice.
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If both are One in "will" then how do you explain the words of the Lord here?:

"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).​

The answer is "two."

As you said, they are one voice but when the pronoun "I" is spoken by Jesus it refers exclusively to the Lord Jesus, as this passage demonstrates:

"He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the son of the living God" (Mt.16:15-16).​

When the Lord Jesus used the pronoun "I" in the following verse the Apostle John knew that the "I" was referring to the Lord Jesus and no one else:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12-13).​

From John's words which followed we can know that the pronoun "I" was in John's mind none other than the Lord Jesus:

"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Rev.22:20).​

John also knew that the Lord Jesus is God because it is only God who is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.
 
Ktoyou

Ktoyou

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Jerry Shugart said:
If both are One in will then how do you explain thewords of the Lord here?:

"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).​
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because your thinking mind is person centered, not God centred
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Ktoyou said:
because your thinking mind is person centered, not God centred
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How many different "wills" are spoken by the Lord Jesus in this verse?":

"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).​

If you cannot understand that "two" different "wills" are spoken of here then your Spiritual I.Q. is ZERO!
 
Ktoyou

Ktoyou

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Jerry Shugart said:
How many different "wills" are spoken by the Lord Jesus in this verse?":

"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Mt.26:39).​

If you cannot understand that "two" different "wills" are spoken of here then your Spiritual I.Q. is ZERO!
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No. that is how it appears to you. I well understand your need to apply human logic here.
 
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