John 10:30 – Jesus is The Son of God

[Jerry Shugart]

Hi Trevor,

I asked you:

How can the Lord Jesus have just come into existence when He was born of Mary since the Apostle Paul makes it plain that He was "before all things?:

"And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence" (Col.1:17-18).​

To this you said:

I will briefly give some aspects of my view here. Whenever I see the phrase “all things” I immediately think of Psalm 8:6. Do you agree that Colossians 1:17 may be alluding to the “all things” of Psalm 8:6? Now my second suggestion is that these “all things” could well be speaking of the new creation, not the first creation. Now does the word “before” represent before in time or superiority? Either way, if this is the spiritual creation, Jesus is before in time and superiority.

Again, what is said at Colossians 1:17 can only be understood by its "context":

"for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; and he is before all things, and in him all things consist" (Col.1:16-17).​

The "context"makes it plain that the words "all things" refer to all the created things in the heavens and the earth. And we know that this is referring to the earth upon which we now stand. That is because the Greek word translated "have been created" is in the "perfect" tense:

"The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated" (The Blue Letter Bible).​

So the reference to the "all things" is in regard to the now present heavens and earth.

Since the Lord Jesus is described as being "before" all things in regard to the present created universe then how can you possibly assert that He didn't even exist before He was born to Mary?

Also, since the Lord Jesus existed before "all" created things came into existence then how is it possible that He is a created being?

If you do not mind, I would like to concentrate on Psalm 8, even though you may suggest that I am avoiding the rest of your post. If we agree on the following then we may make some progress in other aspects.
Psalm 8:3-6 (KJV): 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
Without fully divulging my view of this Psalm, could you tell me your understanding of the phrase underlined “thou … hast crowned him with glory and honour”. Who is the “him” and when was he crowned with glory and honour?

I will look into this and tell you what I think later.

In His grace,
Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hi freelight!

Let us look at this verse again:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12).​

To this verse you say:

This is both the Father and the Son speaking, Jesus being the living word of the Father.

If it is both the Lord Jesus and the Father speaking then wouldn't we read "We come quickly"? The use of the pronoun "I" does not lend itself to your idea since the pronoun "I" in this instance means "the one who is speaking or writing" (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary).

Besides that, if both the Lord Jesus and the Father are speaking then why does the Apostle John only acknowledge the Lord Jesus as the One who is coming?:

"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Rev.22:20).​

In this last address, 'God' claims all 3 titles of 'Alpha and Omega, first and last, beginning and end' as a culmination or completion of divine entitlement.

Yes, God claims all three titles and it is the Lord Jesus who is God and it is Him alone who is speaking.

Or perhaps you want to argue that the Apostle John was in error for thinking that it was only the Lord Jesus who said these words, "I come quickly."

 

[freelight]

Important points to consider and re-member.............

Important points to consider and re-member.............

Hi freelight!

Let us look at this verse again:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12).​

To this verse you say: This is both the Father and the Son speaking, Jesus being the living word of the Father.

If it is both the Lord Jesus and the Father speaking then wouldn't we read "We come quickly"? The use of the pronoun "I" does not lend itself to your idea since the pronoun "I" in this instance means "the one who is speaking or writing" (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary).

Besides that, if both the Lord Jesus and the Father are speaking then why does the Apostle John only acknowledge the Lord Jesus as the One who is coming?:

"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Rev.22:20).​

Yes, God claims all three titles and it is the Lord Jesus who is God and it is Him alone who is speaking.

Or perhaps you want to argue that the Apostle John was in error for thinking that it was only the Lord Jesus who said these words, "I come quickly."

Hi JS,

I've just re-edited and added to my original disssertatin on 'Alpha & Omega' here in which I answer more definitively some of your above questions (forgive any redundancy in the discourse) . - then my next commentary here also holds (and elsewhere as my commentary includes and goes beyond traditional mind-sets into the larger metaphysics of things, oh,...and also the importance of 'ethic' of true religious practice, which I bring up from time to time). This and other of my commentaries are 'sufficient' enough to express my opinions at this point on the matter of these particular passages. There comes a point of 'exhaustion' to where a discussion on particulars becomes more taxing on the soul than constructive or edifying to the spirit. The view I bring certainly allows for flexibilities in translation and interpretation from within the broad spectrum of Both Unitarian and Trinitarian views (and beyond since my theology is NOT limited only to the traditional canonical scriptures), based on text variations, metaphysics and philosophical speculations.

I have no dogma to prove, but perspectives, viewpoints and insights to share.

The keynote here is -

It goes without saying that God is, was and is coming THRU the vehicle of His Word, the Son, the Messiah, the Lamb....so that the ONE being described as the Alpha & Omega, First and Last, Beginning and End...speaks as the One Voice of 'God'. The One is manifold (one can entertain a any kind of Christology from the range of Jesus as purely a Man anointed by God, or 'God' in some form manifesting thru the man Jesus,...after awhile it just the same old coin....just different sides and inscriptions thereon.

'God' is a singular "I" in the passage above, because God is One, in essence, nature and identity. The "I AM" of 'God' operates and speaks thru Jesus,...and likewise any who are attuned to the "I Am" presence of their own soul. - this One Universal Consciousness includes different personalities, from the highest most pure forms emenating from the Father-Source (or 'Godhead') to all other sentient beings in the cosmos. And so I extend this discussion to include all applications from the individual to the collective - and STILL,.....All is God and God expressing Himself thru His creative and redeeming Word. - Hence, creation, regeneration, salvation, transformation, ascension, eternal progression, evolution of consciousness....is the on-going 'story' of 'God' at work in Man.....from A to Z.

"Christ in you, the hope of glory"

 

[daqq]

Hi JS,

I've just re-edited and added to my original disssertatin on 'Alpha & Omega' here in which I answer more definitively some of your above questions (forgive any redundancy in the discourse) . - then my next commentary here also holds (and elsewhere as my commentary includes and goes beyond traditional mind-sets into the larger metaphysics of things, oh,...and also the importance of 'ethic' of true religious practice, which I bring up from time to time). This and other of my commentaries are 'sufficient' enough to express my opinions at this point on the matter of these particular passages. There comes a point of 'exhaustion' to where a discussion on particulars becomes more taxing on the soul than constructive or edifying to the spirit. The view I bring certainly allows for flexibilities in translation and interpretation from within the broad spectrum of Both Unitarian and Trinitarian views (and beyond since my theology is NOT limited only to the traditional canonical scriptures), based on text variations, metaphysics and philosophical speculations.

I have no dogma to prove, but perspectives, viewpoints and insights to share.

The keynote here is -

It goes without saying that God is, was and is coming THRU the vehicle of His Word, the Son, the Messiah, the Lamb....so that the ONE being described as the Alpha & Omega, First and Last, Beginning and End...speaks as the One Voice of 'God'. The One is manifold (one can entertain a any kind of Christology from the range of Jesus as purely a Man anointed by God, or 'God' in some form manifesting thru the man Jesus,...after awhile it just the same old coin....just different sides and inscriptions thereon.

'God' is a singular "I" in the passage above, because God is One, in essence, nature and identity. The "I AM" of 'God' operates and speaks thru Jesus,...and likewise any who are attuned to the "I Am" presence of their own soul. - this One Universal Consciousness includes different personalities, from the highest most pure forms emenating from the Father-Source (or 'Godhead') to all other sentient beings in the cosmos. And so I extend this discussion to include all applications from the individual to the collective - and STILL,.....All is God and God expressing Himself thru His creative and redeeming Word. - Hence, creation, regeneration, salvation, transformation, ascension, eternal progression, evolution of consciousness....is the on-going 'story' of 'God' at work in Man.....from A to Z.

"Christ in you, the hope of glory"

Regarding your comment on the importance of ethic I see that as the underlying key to understanding and likewise the underlying problem in most all interpretation which seeks to make Yeshua equal to the Father; for it is directly related to the first and greatest commandment which Yeshua both as as a man, and as Messiah, firmly confesses, exalts, and upholds. If one loves the Father with all of the heart, and with all of the soul, and with all of the mind, and with all of his or her strength, (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Mark 12:29-30), then the same will not seek to exalt Yeshua to the level of equality with the Father or try to replace the Father with Yeshua, (which may not be outwardly stated or admitted by some but truly is the end result in some theological mindsets, such as the Oneness doctrine, which makes the claim that Yeshua is himself YHWH). Messiah Yeshua never did any such thing and even Paul teaches the same concerning him. And if Messiah never did such a thing during any of his earthly ministry then he is never going to do so because he does not change just like the Father does not change, (and Messiah is clearly the Word of the Father). This therefore deeply impacts everything we read which comes from the mouth of Yeshua, no matter where it is written and quoted as coming directly from him; which means that it most certainly includes the Revelation of Messiah Yeshua. So although he may be written and quoted to have said similar and even the same things that his Father and our Father says; those things are no doubt a test designed to teach, that is, for the reader and anyone hearing those words when they are read aloud for example in a congregation. All the idioms, parables, allegories, and sayings of Messiah Yeshua therefore contain miniature versions of what the Father has indeed taught His Son, they are little seeds, like the mustard seed, which Messiah in turn teaches us, who are his younger brethren, (and joint-heirs if we indeed be "in Messiah" which is to be abiding in his Testimony).

Mark 10:47 W/H
47 και ακουσας οτι ιησους ο ναζαρηνος εστιν ηρξατο κραζειν και λεγειν υιε δαυιδ ιησου ελεησον με

Mark 10:46-47
46 And they came to Jericho: and as he went out of Jericho with his disciples, and a great number of people, Bar-Timaeus the son of Timaeus, a blind beggar, sat by the wayside.
47 And when he heard that it is Yeshua the Nazαrenos, he began to cry out, and say, Yeshua son of David have mercy on me!

Luke 18:37 W/H
37 απηγγειλαν δε αυτω οτι ιησους ο ναζωραιος παρερχεται

Luke 18:35-38
35 And it came to pass, that as he was near Jericho, a certain blind man sat by the way side begging:
36 And hearing the multitude passing through, he asked what it meant.
37 And they announced to him that Yeshua the Natzωraios is passing by.
38 And he shouted, saying, Yeshua son of David have mercy on me!

So we see that the πρωτος ανθρωπος αδαμ contains the αλφα, that is, ιησους ο ναζαρηνος.
But the δευτερος ανθρωπος or εσχατος αδαμ contains the ω, that is, ιησους ο ναζωραιος.

 

[daqq]

Mark 10:47 W/H
47 και ακουσας οτι ιησους ο ναζαρηνος εστιν ηρξατο κραζειν και λεγειν υιε δαυιδ ιησου ελεησον με

Mark 10:46-47
46 And they came to Jericho: and as he went out of Jericho with his disciples, and a great number of people, Bar-Timaeus the son of Timaeus, a blind beggar, sat by the wayside.
47 And when he heard that it is Yeshua the Nazαrenos, he began to cry out, and say, Yeshua son of David have mercy on me!

Luke 18:37 W/H
37 απηγγειλαν δε αυτω οτι ιησους ο ναζωραιος παρερχεται

Luke 18:35-38
35 And it came to pass, that as he was near Jericho, a certain blind man sat by the way side begging:
36 And hearing the multitude passing through, he asked what it meant.
37 And they announced to him that Yeshua the Natzωraios is passing by.
38 And he shouted, saying, Yeshua son of David have mercy on me!

So we see that the πρωτος ανθρωπος αδαμ contains the αλφα, that is, ιησους ο ναζαρηνος.
But the δευτερος ανθρωπος or εσχατος αδαμ contains the ω, that is, ιησους ο ναζωραιος.

Matthew 2:23
23 And having come he dwelt in a city being labeled Nazαret, (cf. Matthew 4:13 Ναζαρα [נזר]), so that what is spoken by the Prophet(s) might be fulfilled, that he shall be called Natzωrai, (נצורי - Isaiah 49:6).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

freelight,

Let us look at this verse again:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12).​

To this verse you say:

This is both the Father and the Son speaking, Jesus being the living word of the Father.

If it is both the Lord Jesus and the Father speaking then wouldn't we read "We come quickly"? The use of the pronoun "I" does not lend itself to your idea since the pronoun "I" in this instance means "the one who is speaking or writing" (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary).

To this you say:

'God' is a singular "I" in the passage above, because God is One, in essence, nature and identity. The "I AM" of 'God' operates and speaks thru Jesus,...and likewise any who are attuned to the "I Am" presence of their own soul. - this One Universal Consciousness includes different personalities, from the highest most pure forms emenating from the Father-Source (or 'Godhead') to all other sentient beings in the cosmos. And so I extend this discussion to include all applications from the individual to the collective - and STILL,.....All is God and God expressing Himself thru His creative and redeeming Word. - Hence, creation, regeneration, salvation, transformation, ascension, eternal progression, evolution of consciousness....is the on-going 'story' of 'God' at work in Man.....from A to Z.
"Christ in you, the hope of glory"

If you are right then Peter was in error because he was under the impression that it was the Lord Jesus speaking, as witnessed by his words here:

"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Rev.22:20).​

Besides that, it is certain that the disciples of the Lord Jesus were expecting that He would return to the earth. However, I am not aware that any of them were expecting anyone other than Him to come to the earth from heaven. Can you give me any evidence that anyone was expecting anyone other than the Lord Jesus to arrive on the earth coming from heaven?

Thanks!

 

[freelight]

Logos reflections...............

Logos reflections...............

freelight,

Let us look at this verse again:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12).​

To this verse you say:



If it is both the Lord Jesus and the Father speaking then wouldn't we read "We come quickly"? The use of the pronoun "I" does not lend itself to your idea since the pronoun "I" in this instance means "the one who is speaking or writing" (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary).

I already answered and explained this by re-directing anyone interested to my original dissertation on 'Alpha & Omega' in my last post, see the LINK (s) provided. I've explained AMPLY my views figuratively and philosophically. Commentary is provided for those following as well, as these provide a valuable service for those who are actually wanting to 'learn', discover truth for themselves and expand consciousness. Each are responsible to examine all things and choose what is most rational and true, and to keep an open mind for continual learning and progressive revelation.

Remember, after you read my expanded upon commentary here, that the One speaking is the Voice of 'God', its One Voice....both the Father and Son share One Voice. One "I AM" consciousness, One singular Deity. - All thru Revelation, this One Voice of Prophecy, is the testimony of Jesus. The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, because Jesus is the manifested logos revealed in human form, and reveals the glory of God in that very form, which is a prototype of our humanity renewed in Christ, the restoration of the image of God in man.)

The entire Revelation also shows that the Son, the Christ, the Lamb is a distinct agent or vehicle that serves the Father-God (The Lord God Almighty), and these agents or agencies are One with the Father. This is simple really, since there is only One God, One Infinite Spirit, One eternal Word, One voice. There is 'God', and God's Word. In the Infinite One there is a manifold unity in 7-fold expression. These understandings fit within a spiritual discerning and intellectually honest reading of the passages, which can be interpreted in various nuances within a Unitarian or Trinitarian context. Since 'God' is a manifold One, God and his divine company are all called 'elohim'. The most high Deity, cosmic beings, divine Sons(angels) and human sons serving 'God', are called 'elohim' as well. 'Elohim' includes all these express images of himself, in their various roles of power, service and government.

If you are right then Peter was in error because he was under the impression that it was the Lord Jesus speaking, as witnessed by his words here:

"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Rev.22:20).​

I assume you mean John instead of Peter here? I've never claimed John is wrong about anything, but sharing observations of the most rational as well as most spiritually satisfying interpretation of the passages. My craft is more of an expositor/expounder than an apologist,...more of a poet/philosopher than a doctrinal dictator

John obviously assumes that the Lord Jesus is the one who is to come, since he is the first and last revelation of God to mankind, as the Lord God Almighty accomplishes his will and manifests his glory THRU His Messiah. God Almighty comes, reveals, appears thru His anointed Agent, the Lord Jesus. There is the infinite Spirit, and His creative image or word, accomplishing the divine will thru-out space and time.

Besides that, it is certain that the disciples of the Lord Jesus were expecting that He would return to the earth. However, I am not aware that any of them were expecting anyone other than Him to come to the earth from heaven. Can you give me any evidence that anyone was expecting anyone other than the Lord Jesus to arrive on the earth coming from heaven?

The Second coming is a common belief, but there is something more to be researched about what the 'Parousia' of the Lord refers to. That's another topic. The Lord also makes his 'appearance' or 'visitation' to us personally as we have a divine encounter or regeneration of soul by His Spirit, so this can be a kind of 'coming' of the Lord as well. A more universal 'parousia' of the Lord may also happen collectively (as traditionally assumed), but as I shared...the whole 'Second Coming' concept is another subject. Remember, 'God' is OMNIPRESENT. God is the sole Reality that IS, and this 'Isness' pervades all segways of time, ....past, present and future. 'God' abides in an everpresent NOW that contains all time-sectors. His Presence is the sole primary reality, in which all other sub-realities and distortions of reality appear. The Book of Revelation reveals 'God' as the One who is, was, and is to come as covering all time, all dimensions of creation wherever any perception of time exists, so God's manifest Presence is ever-presently simultaneously everywhere at once. Titles such as 'Alpha & Omega', 'First and Last', 'Beginning and End' are spectrum references to epochs or eons of 'time'. All dispensations of creation and regeneration issue forth from God, so his signature in creation is revealed A to Z

 

[Jerry Shugart]

freelight,

If you are right then John was in error because he was under the impression that it was the Lord Jesus speaking, as witnessed by his words here:

"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Rev.22:20).​

John was responding to what the Lord Jesus said here:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12-13).​

John knew that it was the Lord Jesus speaking there and he also knew that the Lord Jesus is God. There can be no doubt about that since the Lord Jesus said that He is the Alpha and Omega and the beginning and the ending, a title that can only belong to God.

But you say this about John's conclusion in regard to who it is who said that He comes quickly:

John obviously assumes that the Lord Jesus is the one who is to come, since he is the first and last revelation of God to mankind, as the Lord God Almighty accomplishes his will and manifests his glory THRU His Messiah. God Almighty comes, reveals, appears thru His anointed Agent, the Lord Jesus. There is the infinite Spirit, and His creative image or word, accomplishing the divine will thru-out space and time.

That does not change the fact that the words Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending came out of the mouth of the Lord Jesus and that can only mean that He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending.

Therefore, we can know that the Lord Jesus is the Almighty God:

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev.1:8).​

We see the same thing here:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

The Mighty God is none other than JHWH:

"Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, is his name" (Jer.32:18).​

 

[freelight]

Taking on proof texts.......

Taking on proof texts.......

freelight,

If you are right then John was in error because he was under the impression that it was the Lord Jesus speaking, as witnessed by his words here:

"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Rev.22:20).​

John was responding to what the Lord Jesus said here:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12-13).​

John knew that it was the Lord Jesus speaking there and he also knew that the Lord Jesus is God. There can be no doubt about that since the Lord Jesus said that He is the Alpha and Omega and the beginning and the ending, a title that can only belong to God.

But you say this about John's conclusion in regard to who it is who said that He comes quickly:



That does not change the fact that the words Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending came out of the mouth of the Lord Jesus and that can only mean that He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending.

Therefore, we can know that the Lord Jesus is the Almighty God:

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev.1:8).​

Already addressed :thumb:

We see the same thing here:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

The Mighty God is none other than JHWH:

"Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, is his name" (Jer.32:18).​

Not exactly, for there are some problems with how most Christian bibles 'translate' Is. 9:6, while the Hebrew text presents a very different translation emphasis and arrangement of the sentence, which in some Jewish bibles is actually verse 5. Some of the biggest problems from a Jewish perspective is that this passage is not speaking of a child that SHALL BE born, but that WAS BORN, bearing the present or past tense of the words being used, and is traditionally interpreted by its 'context' to be speaking of the King Hezekiah, although some may assume a 'double prophecy' mode into the text to make it refer to a future king-messiah as well.

Another issue is in the very translation of the 'titles' or 'names' which do NOT make the one who was born 'God',...but that 'God' raised the king up as a Ruler of Peace, as history shows concerning King Hezekiah after their great victory over the Assyrians. Do note even if the names could be applied to Hezekiah himself (or even Jesus which Jews find a rather exotic claim), they are descriptions of God himself, not the man who is given the titles by way of 'God' using him to accomplish God's will. Many Hebrew names are descriptions of God, this does not make the people or places that are so named, into 'God' himself. So, digging deeper into the Hebrew and respecting how Jewish rabbis interpret their own scriptures is a good place to begin for starters

Orthodox Jews wholly reject Jesus as their Messiah, on solid grounds of what the Messiah is supposed to accomplish to prove his identity - see 'Jewish Messiah Wanted'. - again one can treat these Jewish scriptures as 'messianic prophecies' giving them 'Christian interpretations', but we would note the differences and their theological implications. - So I'd get to know the reasons why Jews reject Jesus as their Messiah and how they translate their scriptures first, then we can examine Christian NT interpretations and Christological assumptions that follow - it depends on what you're putting your 'investment' in, doesn't it

Below is a rendering of Is. 9:5 from English translation of the entire Tanach with Rashi's commentary. Translation edited by esteemed translator and scholar, Rabbi A.J. Rosenberg:

ה.כִּי יֶלֶד יֻלַּד לָנוּ בֵּן נִתַּן לָנוּ וַתְּהִי הַמִּשְׂרָה עַל שִׁכְמוֹ וַיִּקְרָא שְׁמוֹ פֶּלֶא יוֹעֵץ אֵל גִּבּוֹר אֲבִי עַד שַׂר שָׁלוֹם:

5.For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."

Rashi Commentary:

For a child has been born to us: Although Ahaz is wicked, his son who was born to him many years ago [nine years prior to his assuming the throne] to be our king in his stead, shall be a righteous man, and the authority of the Holy One, blessed be He, and His yoke shall be on his shoulder, for he shall engage in the Torah and observe the commandments, and he shall bend his shoulder to bear the burden of the Holy One, blessed be He.

and… called his name: The Holy One, blessed be He, Who gives wondrous counsel, is a mighty God and an everlasting Father, called Hezekiah’s name, “the prince of peace,” since peace and truth will be in his days.

-Source

Further commentary on Is. 9:6 is being worked on oly: - We might also add that the Septuagint translations of this passage are even more weak for proving that the child or son that is born in the context of the passage is 'Yahweh' himself. - that and other issues, don't look very good for the Trinitarian or modalists camps.

 

[Zeke]

Already addressed :thumb:



Not exactly, for there are some problems with how most Christian bibles 'translate' Is. 9:6, while the Hebrew text presents a very different translation emphasis and arrangement of the sentence, which in some Jewish bibles is actually verse 5. Some of the biggest problems from a Jewish perspective is that this passage is not speaking of a child that SHALL BE born, but that WAS BORN, bearing the present or past tense of the words being used, and is traditionally interpreted by its 'context' to be speaking of the King Hezekiah, although some may assume a 'double prophecy' mode into the text to make it refer to a future king-messiah as well.

Another issue is in the very translation of the 'titles' or 'names' which do NOT make the one who was born 'God',...but that 'God' raised the king up as a Ruler of Peace, as history shows concerning King Hezekiah after their great victory over the Assyrians. Do note even if the names could be applied to Hezekiah himself (or even Jesus which Jews find a rather exotic claim), they are descriptions of God himself, not the man who is given the titles by way of 'God' using him to accomplish God's will. Many Hebrew names are descriptions of God, this does not make the people or places that are so named, into 'God' himself. So, digging deeper into the Hebrew and respecting how Jewish rabbis interpret their own scriptures is a good place to begin for starters

Orthodox Jews wholly reject Jesus as their Messiah, on solid grounds of what the Messiah is supposed to accomplish to prove his identity - see 'Jewish Messiah Wanted'. - again one can treat these Jewish scriptures as 'messianic prophecies' giving them 'Christian interpretations', but we would note the differences and their theological implications. - So I'd get to know the reasons why Jews reject Jesus as their Messiah and how they translate their scriptures first, then we can examine Christian NT interpretations and Christological assumptions that follow - it depends on what you're putting your 'investment' in, doesn't it

Below is a rendering of Is. 9:5 from English translation of the entire Tanach with Rashi's commentary. Translation edited by esteemed translator and scholar, Rabbi A.J. Rosenberg:



Further commentary on Is. 9:6 is being worked on oly: - We might also add that the Septuagint translations of this passage are even more weak for proving that the child or son that is born in the context of the passage is 'Yahweh' himself. - that and other issues, don't look very good for the Trinitarian or modalists camps.

Of coarse its all based on the assumption promulgated by western culture that these stories actually belong to the Hebrews historically which is highly unlikely, which throws a different light on the whole charade fed to the western mindset and the historical viability of any of it being a truth one can stand on literally.

 

[God's Truth]

John 10:30 – Jesus is The Son of God

John 10:30-36 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
John 10:30 clearly teaches that Jesus is The Son of God. In verse 30 Jesus states that he is at one, at unity with His Father, thus claiming that God is His Father, and thus that He is The Son of God. When the Jews objected Jesus gives clear and thorough reasons why their accusation is incorrect, including verse 30 where Jesus reiterates in different words what he had stated in verse 30 by saying:
John 10:36 (KJV): I said, I am the Son of God

Kind regards
Trevor

God the Father came in the flesh as a Son.

When one comes forth from another...that one is called a son.

That is why Jesus is called a Son.

 

[Tambora]

God the Father came in the flesh as a Son.

Nope. The Father sent the Son.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Already addressed

You never explained why John believed that it was only the Lord Jesus who was speaking at Revelation 22:12-13 and why he believed that it was only the Lord Jesus who said that He is coming quickly.

 

[God's Truth]

Nope. The Father sent the Son.

When someone comes from one it is called a son or a daughter.

That is for us humans.

 

[Bright Raven]

When someone comes from one it is called a son or a daughter.

That is for us humans.

Jesus is not the Father. You are sorrily mistaken.

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus is not the Father. You are sorrily mistaken.

Is the Holy Spirit the Spirit of God the Father?

 

[Bright Raven]

Is the Holy Spirit the Spirit of God the Father?

No, He is the third person of the Trinity.

 

[God's Truth]

No, He is the third person of the Trinity.

The Bible says that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God the Father.

 

[Bright Raven]

The Bible says that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God the Father.

Show the scripture

 

[freelight]

Lets try this again..............

Lets try this again..............

You never explained why John believed that it was only the Lord Jesus who was speaking at Revelation 22:12-13 and why he believed that it was only the Lord Jesus who said that He is coming quickly.

I did, in my re-edited (added upon) original dissertation on the Alpha & Omega here in this thread which clarifies my points, and all additional commentary elucidates it further. It may be more of the challenge or art of you learning to see where my explanations DO address this, then understanding it - I've fully covered it. But just to be extra-generous, here's more of a summary, -

SINCE the Father and the Son are ONE in mind, spirit and will,...when one speaks the other also does since they are One Voice. Did you get that in my previous re-edited commentary? Remember 'God' and his 'word' are one. When the Father/Son speaks, they speak together as one. I'd think a Trinitarian or Oneness advocate would get that, but here we are debating over who is speaking - lol. - really, it gets a chuckle. God is One.

As far as me showing HOW I differentiate the Father from the Son in particular passages in Revelation,..I've described that already, showing that the title Lord God, the Almighty refers primarily and always to The Father, while the Son who is the Word and Lamb, is the First and Last (this title is given to him more than once as a particular title in that book), the firstborn from the dead, the Beginning of the Creation of God, (the Son is defined more by his incarnational revelational appearance (begetting) in space, matter and time, since he is the manifest form or express image of 'God')....the Son remains the Son, the eternally Begotten Son (if you want to use Trinitarian terms), while the Father EVER holds Primacy as the Universal Father, the Progenitor of all. In the final announcement in Revelation all 3 titles are used in the proclamation of the coming of the Christ, yes....this includes BOTH the Father and the Son speaking as one voice, in their 'entitlements', so that 'God' and his 'Word' are engaging ....expressing in the past, present and future....being the 'eternal' appearing in time.

Lets remember, 'God' and his 'Word' are One Voice. While one or another personification of 'God' may appear to be preeminently speaking in any given situational-context,...they are ever as one company, one symphony.