Sorry to have not had the time to reply... the weather kept me out of town a bit. It appears as though the Talmud, all nine volumes thereof, is a little alien to you also, Nazaroo! Maybe your 'Jewish' Nazarene 'early church fathers' weren't so familiar, either?
I've never heard of your alleged "Seth Theory," Nazaroo, Catholic or otherwise. The 'Sethites' being the "sons of God (who) saw the daughters of men (Cain & Co.) that they were fair; and they took them wives all which they chose" (Genesis 6:1, 2) speaks for itself, don't you think? I don't particularly read Catholic renderings... but, if the Catholics have it figured the "daughters of men" were the relatives of Cain, well, what can I say? They've got a leg up on the Nazarites! Do you think Revelation 2:9, 3:9 was "also invented 400 years POST JESUS"?
I've offered Acts 4:13, 20 at least a couple times on this thread. Peter was a couple slices short of the OT truth early in his ministry. Take a look at Peter's comment in Acts 3:13 KJV. I've asked you Nazaroo... were Judah's Shelanite descendants ancestrally intact 'Jews'? Were the Shelanites ancestrally intact Israelites conceived contrary to Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3, Ezra 9:1, 2, 7, 10:2, 3? Answer this one, Nazaroo! Peter, unfamiliar with the OT early in his ministry, did not come to this 'Jewish' distinction as did Paul in Romans 9:6, 7, 8, 9. Peter clearly understood who Jesus was (Acts 3:13 KJV), Peter just didn't know who the Shelanites were proclaiming only Abraham (circumventing Isaac and Jacob) as their father (John 8:33, Luke 3:2, 7, 8, 9). A few verses later in Acts 3:14, 15, 16, 17, 18, Peter makes it clear he didn't perceived the OT 'Jewish' distinction throwing the baby (Israelites) out with the bathwater (Shelanite rulers) in v. 17. Peter acknowledged the Israelites were deluded partakers in the crucifixion, Peter had not yet made the distinction their rulers were NOT ancestrally intact Israelite "Jews."
Do the Catholics discern an Israelite Jew, from an Ashkenazi Jew, from a Sephardic/Shelanite 'Jew'? Sounds like your entire argument here is with the Catholics, not me, LOL! You tag me with some Catholic theology, and trash me? ROFLOL! You crack me up with your guilt by association... but, undoubtedly there were Shelanites among the early church fathers of the Nazarites and Catholics!
From Jesus' perspective, He was submitting to crucifixion following the command He received from His Father in John 10:17, 18. Jesus took the shame of sin to the cross Nazaroo... I've already made this point from Hebrews 12:1, 2. It is you sir, who flogs yourself and others with the law to achieve salvation. Satan's thunder is in your firm grasp of his flagrum.
You make no 'Jewish' distinction in your comment, Nazaroo. Probably because your early church fathers were "Jewish" of unknown distinction. Furthermore, I seemed to miss those additional titles in the Bible... talking about your rebuttal being all over the place!
Like I said Nazaroo... your argument here is with the Catholics.
It’s the Nazarene boohoo voodoo salvation and shame-based theology in question. The Nazarene idols are a flagrum and the law.
More diversion argument with the Catholics, Nazaroo. I don't subscribe to the notion Jesus was God. Another time, perhaps.
Again, more Catholic diversion argument, Nazaroo. Totally off topic.
That's pseudoscience, Nazaroo. Scientists do respect laws, do they not? Nazarites also respect the law, do they not? Hand in glove, rather hand on flagrum.
I never said the northern tribes were Shelanites in your presumptuousness. Jesus wasn't speaking to the ISRAELITE northern tribes in Matthew 23:29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35. Those Jesus was speaking to were the descendants of Cain, who killed Abel? Fill in the pronouns in John 8:44 KJV reflecting on John 8:15. Reconsider Revelation 2:9, 3:9.
Those perps, descendants of Cain, weren't called Shelanites until Numbers 26:20. Who exactly did you say Keturah was? What was her ancestry? Who was the wicked Pharaoh of Exodus who Ezekiel illuminated in Ezekiel 31:1, 2, Ezekiel 31:3, Ezekiel 31:8, 9? Moses said Abraham's progeny via Keturah were "the children of Keturah" (Genesis 25:4). They were "Abraham's seed" (John 8:33 KJV, John 8:37 KJV). They just weren't "Abraham's children" (John 8:39 KJV). Moses did say Judah's wife was a daughter of the "Canaanite" Shuah (Genesis 38:2), affirmed she was a "Canaanitess" by Ezra in 1Chronicles 2:3.
Who did your early 'Jewish' Nazarene church fathers say Keturah was? You did gather the redundancy in the title "Canaanite" in Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, Ezra 9:1, 2, didn't you? Why was it Moses and Ezra used the GEOGRAPHIC tile "Canaanites" in those rosters redundantly alongside itemized titles of Canaan's descendants? I appreciate a concordance... I suggest you figure that big CLUE out not discerned from a concordance. There are other similar, redundant rosters in the OT: Anonymity.
Sorry, Nazaroo... "As he (Jesus) spake these words, many believed on him. 31) Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue (listening) in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32) And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:30, 31, 32, KJV). Paul was following the twisted rendering Messiah would arrive as a descendant of Judah via his legal CANAANITE wife. I've already suggested both Stephen AND Paul's disciple Ananias were among those believers who became disciples of Jesus in Jesus' dialogue with His Shelanite detractors in the next verse, John 8:33 KJV.
So, you proffer the HOLOCAUST was God's direct effort? Is God an antiSemite, Nazaroo? Those slaughtered in the Holocaust were predominately Ashkenazi Gentile proselyte Jews, descendants of Japheth’s son Gomer’s son, Ashkenaz (Genesis 9:27, 10:2, 3, 4, Genesis 10:5 KJV).
If I've not made it clear Nazaroo... I never previously heard of Wexler. But, you might take up your diversion argument with him. I stick with the KJV Bible, evidently a significant aspect remains veiled to you! It stands to reason… you’d have to give up your church (Matthew 8:19, 20, KJV).
Cool! Everything thus far has been diversion.
Finally you offer something worth discussing. The Shelanites hid behind the title, "Jew." And, as I recall, Keturah did have six sons (Genesis 25:1, 2, 3, 4). They didn't just fall off the radar, either... particularly considering those 32k Midianite virgins (granddaughters of Keturah via her son, Midian) who Moses angrily permitted entry into the congregation of the Lord in Numbers 31:1, 2, 3, 9, 14, 17, 18, 35. But, I do appreciate your mention of the Edomites! They've already been discussed to some extent in this thread. Let's do take a further look-see.
What exactly was/is "Judaism," Nazaroo? That same pathetic, Satanic religion of Talmudism was what Paul finally defected from? Evidently, your 'Jewish' Nazarene early church fathers pay only lip service to the 'name,' the ancestry of Jesus. Paul was preceded by many other 'lost sheep' (John 8:30, 31, 32) who CONVERTED to Christianity such as Stephen, and Paul's disciple Ananias in Acts 9:10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19.
There is only one ISRAEL, Nazaroo (Deuteronomy 7:6, 7, 8, 9). Didn't you make some mention of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? I don't believe the Edomites were descendant of Jacob. Furthermore, the Edomites had no ancestral claim as progenitors of Messiah prophesied by Isaiah 65:9 KJV, while the Shelanites did. Agreed, the Edomites were NOT ancestrally intact Israelite “Jews.” However, at least once, I mentioned God's door for the inclusion of the descendants of Esau, the EDOMITES, disclosed in Deuteronomy 23:7, 8, 9. That door was conditional, "When the host (Israelites) goeth forth against thine enemies, then keep thee from every wicked thing" (v. 9). The majority of those 'wicked things' involved incest, with particular attention to Leviticus 18:16, 17, KJV, and Leviticus 20:10, 21, KJV, Leviticus 22:22 KJV. I bring these laws forward to illuminate Queen Herodias’ motive desiring John the Baptist’s head. She was Herod’s sister-in-law, and the daughter she prostituted was the daughter of Herod’s brother.
Sorry for your misquote, Nazaroo. The KJV reports Jesus’ detractors claimed, “We be Abraham’s SEED and were never in bondage to any man…” not “children” as you misquote. I do believe I previously noted the subtle distinction of this argument can only be discerned in the KJV. Jesus said His detractors were “Abraham’s SEED” in John 8:37 KJV. Jesus went further to distinguish His detractors were not “Abraham’s CHILDREN” in John 8:39 KJV. In so doing, Jesus affirmed Moses’ distinction Abraham’s progeny via Keturah were “the CHILDREN of Keturah,” and NOT children of Abraham (Genesis 25:1, 2, 3, 4). Furthermore, Esau was a legitimate brother of Jacob and the Israelites (Deuteronomy 23:7, 8, 9). Then Esau was one of Isaac’s “children,” therefore Esau was a legitimate CHILD of Abraham, unlike the Shelanite descendants of Judah and his Canaanite wife contrary to Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3, Ezra 9:1, 2, 7, 10:2, 3.
The powerful Edomites may have appointed the priests, Nazaroo. But, the Edomites were not priests. The Edomites had no direct ancestral claim as progenitors of Messiah, the Shelanites did (Isaiah 65:9). The Edomites were possibly deluded as was Paul before his conversion, converted following Stephen, disciple Ananias, and those of John 8:30, 31, 32.
Do you have particular scripture to corroborate your claim like Genesis 27:41, 42, 43, 44, 45? I thought Esau, some time following Esau’s forfeiture of his ‘birthright,’ that Esau graciously welcomed Isaac in Genesis 32, summarized in Genesis 33:4, 9, 10, 11. So, those Edomites who had a problem with the Israelites of Jesus’ day were most certainly NOT those descendants of Esau who met the conditional entrance requirement of Deuteronomy 23:7, 8, 9, although I do suspect Herod was an ancestrally intact Edomite. Queen Herodias (who I proffer was a Shelanite whore) didn’t want Herod to hear the truth (aforementioned laws of Leviticus) from John the Baptist. JTB was the son of the ISRAELITE PRIEST Zachairas (Luke 1:5 KJV), both familiar with Mosaic Law, likely unfamiliar to Herod. Herod turned the matter over to Pilot, who knew Jesus was innocent, and knew the difference between a Shelanite impostor, and an Israelite Jew.
The Edomites had no direct interest in being priests, Nazaroo. Messiah was prophesied to arrive via Judah, not Esau (Isaiah 65:9). I do appreciate your theory… do you have any scripture to affirm such? Or, are you rambling to vindicate your ‘Jewish’ Nazarene early church fathers?
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