Jesus the Messiah died for me.

[Prizebeatz1]

You are just looking to the wrong things. It's like trying to find fulfillment in life. It's looking to the wrong thing, fulfillment.

You have worth in God's eyes. It's not self-worth.

Do you suppose it's okay to justify living our lives without self-worth? Have we considered the magnitude of something like this? Do you honestly suppose God would prefer the same? Do you want your children to live without true self-worth? Do you think your mother or father or sister or brother have any self-value? Do you think you have any self-value? By definition, self-worth comes from within. Why wouldn't I just go shoot a bunch of people and then shoot myself if I don't feel any self-worth? Why wouldn't I be ready to go to war and be ready to die if I can't feel any value or meaning or significance in my life? Is this not apparent? Multiply this by thousands of centuries and billions of people and what do we get?

 

[Jacob]

Do you suppose it's okay to justify living our lives without self-worth? Have we considered the magnitude of something like this? Do you honestly suppose God would prefer the same? Do you want your children to live without true self-worth? Do you think your mother or father or sister or brother have any self-value? Do you think you have any self-value? By definition, self-worth comes from within. Why wouldn't I just go shoot a bunch of people and then shoot myself if I don't feel any self-worth? Why wouldn't I be ready to go to war and be ready to die if I can't feel any value or meaning or significance in my life? Is this not apparent?

I understand that this might be troubling to you, but if self-worth wasn't the subject lack of self-worth would never come up.

If we are concerned with self and image and value and worth and being self-centered, what happens when God says I love you and I want you to live your life to glorify me? That's different. It's not about self any more. I am still myself. But I worship God, the one who created me.

 

[Prizebeatz1]

I understand that this might be troubling to you, but if self-worth wasn't the subject lack of self-worth would never come up.

If we are concerned with self and image and value and worth and being self-centered, what happens when God says I love you and I want you to live your life to glorify me? That's different. It's not about self any more. I am still myself. But I worship God, the one who created me.

Okay. That's respectable. I am not trying to take anything away from that. There needs to be a balance. I just think a little awareness can shed some light to the situation. I agree we can't get too caught up with self-worth but we still need to consider its importance. I don't have all the answers but I think we can make great progress together. Thank you for your input.

 

[Jacob]

Okay. That's respectable. I am not trying to take anything away from that. There needs to be a balance. I just think a little awareness can shed some light to the situation. I agree we can't get too caught up with self-worth but we still need to consider its importance.

Many people live with a good understanding of their worth. They know they are valued, treasured, cherished. It doesn't matter who anyone is, who or what they are known by, who they know, what they know, or what they think about themselves, what others think about them, or what they might think others think about them.

A good family and a good home involves not only understanding value and roles in family relationships... but worth because of being a creation of God. No matter how big and no matter how small.

If we know at all that we can help someone to see the worth God had in creating them, we should. And we can do this with the love with which God has loved us. Each and every conceived life has value, from conception to death in old age. If we see our value in God's eyes rather than being confused with the cares of the world, it goes a long way toward understanding the truths of scripture that have brought us to this understanding and that can help us in all areas of understanding the world in which we live. From who God and Jesus are to what salvation is, to how to live the way God wants us to live, to what things in life need to be understood in that they are difficult but which we may not always understand or even understand completely. Human suffering occurs. But we can do everything we can so that it does not. When it does, I really believe God has a purpose and a plan in it, if even that we would not be thinking only of ourselves.

 

[freelight]

Blanket statements challenged......

Blanket statements challenged......

~*~*~

This in response to my last post here (this traces all our previous dialogue)

Again, everything about what you are saying is false.

Such a blanket assumption does not really address every point I've expounded on, and its an evasion of particulars. I wouldn't venture so far to make such a grandiose 'assumption' that "everything about what you are saying is false", but I've addressed certain particulars and principles involved in the shared proposition. The burden of proof falls upon you to prove that 'everything' I've shared here is FALSE, beyond "because I say so".

Your 'concept' of Jesus dying for your sins, is just a 'concept'. One may derive some kind of value or meaning from the 'concept' depending on how such is 'interpreted' or what kind of 'effect' such a 'belief' might have upon a person. - its subjective, its something that takes 'faith'.

A person who knows nothing of a 'vicarious-atonement' concept or that 'God' or a 'god' anywhere is demanding some kind of payment for 'sins', would be oblivious to what it means that 'Jesus died for our sins', unless a broader sense here is assumed that Jesus fell into the hands of 'sinful' men, so in effect he did die because of 'sin'. Follow? - there are different ways to look at this, either within or beyond a NT-context.

 

[Jacob]

~*~*~

This in response to my last post here (this traces all our previous dialogue)



Such a blanket assumption does not really address every point I've expounded on, and its an evasion of particulars. I wouldn't venture so far to make such a grandiose 'assumption' that "everything about what you are saying is false", but I've addressed certain particulars and principles involved in the shared proposition. The burden of proof falls upon you to prove that 'everything' I've shared here is FALSE, beyond "because I say so".

Your 'concept' of Jesus dying for your sins, is just a 'concept'. One may derive some kind of value or meaning from the 'concept' depending on how such is 'interpreted' or what kind of 'effect' such a 'belief' might have upon a person. - its subjective, its something that takes 'faith'.

A person who knows nothing of a 'vicarious-atonement' concept or that 'God' or a 'god' anywhere is demanding some kind of payment for 'sins', would be oblivious to what it means that 'Jesus died for our sins', unless a broader sense here is assumed that Jesus fell into the hands of 'sinful' men, so in effect he did die because of 'sin'. Follow? - there are different ways to look at this, either within or beyond a NT-context.

Again, I don't know how this addresses what the Bible really says.

Here is what I said in my last post.

You need to know what the gospel is and your life needs to change (it will if you are born again and you will know it is because of God that it does). You need to take steps for this to happen or you will still be leading people astray.

 

[Ben Masada]

Jesus is the Messiah and He died for me. In Him we have forgiveness of sins. In Him I have been granted the free gift of eternal life.

Jesus has been dead for about 2000 years ago and, according to the Prophets of the Most High, he could not have died for the sins of another. (Jer. 31;30; Ezek. 18:20) According to Jesus himself, the only way to get forgiveness of sins is by listening to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31) Jesus would not contradict the Torah Word of HaShem when it says that man cannot live forever. (Gen. 3:22) Last but not least, the individual could not be the Messiah. "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what the Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka God's People.(Prophet Habakkuk 3:13)

What Jesus did I cannot. I have no way to save myself. In Him I have been saved.

There is no salvation in the dead. The problem is that you have not tried. Just do what he told you to do: Just listen to "Moses" aka the Law and you will have salvation in a silver platter. (Luke 16:29-31) If you don't get it, it is because Jesus is dead.

If I do everything possible that I can do, it is still not enough. But what Jesus did is enough. What He did is sufficient to save me.

What about what Jesus said? He said to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. If you do believe what he said, why don't you listen to "Moses" aka the Law? I do. I believe what he said. (Luke 16:29-31) I have repeated this text several times so that it finds way into your heart.

I can't add to my salvation in Him. I can't make myself more saved. If salvation were by what I can do then I would not be saved because it would not be enough.

Because you are lazy. Spiritually lazy, I mean. What is tormenting you is that you prefer to listen to Paul rather than to Jesus. That's what is making you live with this conflict.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

There is a part of us that is one with infinity and eternity. We are inseparable from this divinity and it can be experienced through the soul. It is soooooo real that I cannot even begin to describe. It feels totally organic and 100% natural like we somehow always knew it was there. The soul remembers. I don't expect anyone to be believe me. You have to see for yourselves.

What are you "trying" to say?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

There is ONE divine being and YOU ain't it!

That's for sure.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Okay. That's respectable. I am not trying to take anything away from that. There needs to be a balance. I just think a little awareness can shed some light to the situation. I agree we can't get too caught up with self-worth but we still need to consider its importance. I don't have all the answers but I think we can make great progress together. Thank you for your input.

Doesn't sound as if you have, any of the answers?

 

[Jacob]

Jesus has been dead for about 2000 ago and, according to the Prophets of the Most High, he could not have died for the sins of another. (Jer. 31;30; Ezek. 18:20)

I have pointed out that Jesus is the only exception to a person dying for their own sin, because He didn't have any sin.

Also, Jesus rose from the dead.

According to Jesus himself, the only way to get forgiveness of sins is by listening to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)

He said that if they did not listen to Moses they would not even be persuaded if someone were to rise from the dead.

Jesus would not contradict the Torah Word of God when it says that man cannot live forever. (Gen. 3:22)

I am not sure of your interpretation, but your statement about Jesus not contradicting Torah is true.

Last but not least, the individual could not be the Messiah. "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what the Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka God's People.(Prophet Habakkuk 3:13)

I believe there are verses that pointed to Jesus' identity. That is, that an individual was spoken of in the TaNaKh. And individual who happens to be Jesus in the New Testament writings / New Testament scriptures.

The problem is that you have not tried.

What do you believe I have not tried? I don't understand why you say this.

Just do what he told you to do: Just listen to "Moses" aka the Law and you will have salvation in a silver platter. (Luke 16:29-31) If you don't get it, it is because Jesus is dead.

Jesus is not dead. I know there is a new covenant, but I obey some of the old covenant laws (commands) anyway.

What about what Jesus said? He said to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. If you do believe what he said, why don't you listen to "Moses" aka the Law? I do. I believe what he said.

No problem here.

Because you are lazy. Spiritually lazy. What is tormenting you is that you prefer to listen to Paul rather than Jesus. That's what is making you live with this conflict.

I am not sure of what you are saying. I don't know if or that it is true. I accept all of the Bible. Paul said that the Law is good. I have no conflict with this. Jesus said He did not come to abolish the Law. Again, no conflict.

 

[Ben Masada]

I have pointed out that Jesus is the only exception to a person dying for their own sin, because He didn't have any sin.

Prove it without using your faith. Don't forget that faith proves nothing.

Also, Jesus rose from the dead.He said that if they did not listen to Moses they would not even be persuaded if someone were to rise from the dead.I am not sure of your interpretation, but your statement about Jesus not contradicting Torah is true.

Prove it! without using your faith. The expression "even if someone rose from the dead" means "even if the impossible could happened. You forget that Jesus was a Jew who never even dreamed the gospel of Paul would ever rise.

I believe there are verses that pointed to Jesus' identity. That is, that an individual was spoken of in the TaNaKh. And individual who happens to be Jesus in the New Testament writings / New Testament scriptures.

Okay, so show me the verses you believe there are.

What do you believe I have not tried? I don't understand why you say this.

To give to the truth a chance.

Jesus is not dead. I know there is a new covenant, but I obey some of the old covenant laws (commands) anyway. No problem here.

If you can prove without the use of faith, I am ready to give in.

I am not sure of what you are saying. I don't know if or that it is true. I accept all of the Bible. Paul said that the Law is good. I have no conflict with this. Jesus said He did not come to abolish the Law. Again, no conflict.

How could Paul say that the Law is good when he taught Christians that we have been released from the Law? Definitely
because the Law was not good. (Rom. 7:6) How could he contradict Jesus by saying that the Law was abolished in the cross when Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the Law? (Ephesians 2:15; Mat. 5:17-19)

 

[popsthebuilder]

I find there to be a lot of truth in Catholicism. But it's mostly just one slice of the pie. Rarely do any of the religions have the whole truth. Neither does the bible though it points to the truth. There is no amount of reading the bible that is going to compensate for lack of connection with the infinite and eternal divinity of the soul. I tried all of that already. But thank you for your being so considerate and caring about others.

Perhaps many here don't know that God breathed life into man. That life force, spirit, soul, is of God and is in everyone, though dormant in many.

The Holy Spirit is of GOD.
When this Holy Spirit is shown to us or comes to us we know God is real. This leads to Faith that leads to good in all in all you do. People who say works aren't important are turning a blind eye to scripture. Works do not save, and aren't for the sight of man lest any boast, by they are a sign of salvation and direction under God. Is the life or spirit of God that he breathed into us eternal? Yes, is man or flesh eternal? No. The spirit is of God, and to God it will return. I understand that you are actually trying to make waves, but some of your terms are kinda off it seems. And saying the soul is left out of the trinity isn't quite correct.

A pastor may say that the soul or spirit is not of man, and for good reasons, as man cannot take credit for anything he has been shown by the Holy Spirit, that he doesn't become vain and proud, which leads to prejudice and discrimination of God's creation.

I'm not totally against what your saying, not that you necessarily care, but we as flesh cannot take credit for the very will of GOD. We can do it justice though as opposed to the hypocrite.

I wish you the best, and meant no disrespect whatsoever.

With humility, peace.

 

[popsthebuilder]

It's not a matter of fear, it is a matter of believing a lie. Here is the truth.

It is only for those who have been born again by the Spirit and grace of God.

Romans 8:9 NASB - 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

That's what he is trying to say.

Peace

 

[popsthebuilder]

Have we considered the lie that we are separate from God and therefore we feel worthless on an unconscious level? Hanging onto a belief is one of many ways the personality tries to avoid these feelings of worthlessness. Know that the personality is not who we really are. Who we really are is the soul which is one with the infinite and eternal God. Yet the personality does not want to go near what is infinite and eternal because it thinks the emptiness will obliterate it. It doesn't feel good enough to survive. Here is lack of self-esteem staring us right in the face.

The personality keeps biting the forbidden fruit and unconsciously judges the emptiness as bad. That emptiness is part of who we are and is the source of our infinite self-worth. Avoiding it disconnects and divides us and we tend to over-compensate with hanging on to beliefs. The personality is attached to the unconscious pleasure of having its mind, thoughts, beliefs and body as a foundation and something to hold on to. Here is unconscious pride staring us in the face as well. We like this identity we've made for ourselves because we've worked hard for it and invested so much time and energy. We refuse to let go of it. Now is a good time to realize the seriousness of Luke 17:33: "Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it."

Personally, for me the sense of shame is from chastisement by God that through such I might repent and follow the Holy Spirit. Of course all this is made available through Christ which can be interpreted a couple different ways, none of which are by the hand of man but of the Holy Spirit by God's grace and mercy for all his creation.

Peace

 

[Ben Masada]

I have pointed out that Jesus is the only exception to a person dying for their own sin, because He didn't have any sin.

Prove it without using your faith. Don't forget that faith proves nothing.

Also, Jesus rose from the dead.He said that if they did not listen to Moses they would not even be persuaded if someone were to rise from the dead.I am not sure of your interpretation, but your statement about Jesus not contradicting Torah is true.

Prove it! without using your faith. The expression "even if someone rose from the dead" means "even if the impossible could happened. You forget that Jesus was a Jew who never even dreamed the gospel of Paul would ever rise.

I believe there are verses that pointed to Jesus' identity. That is, that an individual was spoken of in the TaNaKh. And individual who happens to be Jesus in the New Testament writings / New Testament scriptures.

Prove it without using your faith.

What do you believe I have not tried? I don't understand why you say this.

To give the truth a chance.

Jesus is not dead. I know there is a new covenant, but I obey some of the old covenant laws (commands) anyway.No problem here.

Did you know that the New Covenant was made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah? Nothing to do with the gospel of Paul.

I am not sure of what you are saying. I don't know if or that it is true. I accept all of the Bible. Paul said that the Law is good. I have no conflict with this. Jesus said He did not come to abolish the Law. Again, no conflict.

Paul said that he was released from the Law; (Rom. 7:6) That the Law was abolished in the cross while Jesus confessed that he did not come to abolish the Law. How can you believe one and the other? This is called straddling the issue between Paul and Jesus.

 

[meshak]

I hear you. Of course there are checks and balances that come into play. It can't be all selflessness nor can it be all selfishness. I found in my experience that things were often skewed to one end of the spectrum. Everyone has their own comfortable balance point and that can change. No harm there.

You seem to be emphasizing on self-worth too much. I was like that when I was a non-believer. This is what the world teaches.

It is all about entitlement. It leads to pride and dampen humility.

I learned to be humble when I learned about what Jesus is all about and teaches.

You cannot be both sides, we are either with Him or with the world. There is no middle like you seem to be preaching by using the word "balance".

blessings.

 

[Caino]

Jesus is the Messiah and He died for me. In Him we have forgiveness of sins. In Him I have been granted the free gift of eternal life.

What Jesus did I cannot. I have no way to save myself. In Him I have been saved.

If I do everything possible that I can do, it is still not enough. But what Jesus did is enough. What He did is sufficient to save me.

I can't add to my salvation in Him. I can't make myself more saved. If salvation were by what I can do then I would not be saved because it would not be enough.

The doctrine of atonement is selfish! Jesus Lived to make the way of salvation more clear. We already had salvation from our forgiving Heavenly Father. God has always been forgiving, no need for the original gospel to be rejected and the innocent Son/creator to be killed in order for God to forgive. Accept salvation by faith and forget about yourself already! Go do something for someone else!

 

[Prizebeatz1]

Is it possible that the idea Jesus died for our sins was not really an integral part of His message but rather an emphasis of someone else's interpretation of Jesus' message? Did Jesus ever really say those words? Could a person simply have highlighted certain parts of His message in a way that promoted the popular Roman belief that a man could become a God and the Jewish belief in sacrifice? Wouldn't that kind of popularity be beneficial and useful? If we just read the four gospels by themselves would we have the same view of the story of Jesus? Would we be influenced by the rest of the NT and encouraged to remember another person's explanation or what someone else wanted us to remember, even a person who really did not know Jesus while he was alive?

 

[meshak]

Is it possible that the idea Jesus died for our sins was not really an integral part of His message but rather an emphasis of someone else's interpretation of Jesus' message? Did aJesus ever really say those words? Could a person simply have highlighted certain parts of His message in a way that promoted the popular Roman belief that a man could become a God and the Jewish belief in sacrifice?

"For God so loved world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

This is Jesus' own word.