Jesus is YHWH

[glorydaz]

Jesus was flesh as we are, he was tempted as we are, yet without sin. God can't be tempted in any way whatsoever.

The difference between us and Jesus is he is the Christ, fully anointed of God because he put the will of God before himself. He always did what pleased the father and put himself last to bare witness to the truth. But he isn't the Almighty God. The verses I quoted show that clearly.

You need to read more and talk less.


Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

 

[marhig]

Here is chapter and verse that says why you don't believe Jesus is God.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.​

You've been shown scripture that clearly say He created all things, and you're still blind?


Unless you can say, as Thomas did, "My Lord and my God", you have no Saviour. Plain and simple.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.​

No Jesus was saying that to Thomas because Thomas has seen he is risen. You are twisting the scriptures. Nothing there says that we must believe that Jesus is God to be saved. If it was so, then God would have had it clearly written in the Bible. Why can't you see that God is in Christ but Christ isn't God? God is in those who are born of him but they aren't God either!

And what it does say in the Bible is that we are to believe that Jesus is the son of God, and I do.

And the natural man are those who live by the lusts of their flesh, not by the will of God. Those who do this won't see the deeper things of God, because they are not Spiritually discerned putting their flesh before the living God.

And you ignore scripture that clearly says that God is the God is Jesus, even by Jesus himself. So who is the blind one? Those verses show clearly that the father is the one true God, he is God Almighty!

 

[marhig]

You need to read more and talk less.


Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

I read plenty!

God can't be tempted, Jesus was, so he can't be God. That's it there, the Bible says clearly that God can't be tempted... So how can Jesus be God if he was tempted?

James 1

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man

Hebrews 4

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

This is at the beginning of Colossians 1

To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Thanksgiving and Prayer. We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 1:3 KJV)

Ephesians 1

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him

The above clearly shows us that Jesus isn't God and that God is the God of Jesus Christ!

And that is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, but to us there is but one God, the Father of whom are all things and we in him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things and we by him. (1 Corinthians 8:4-6 KJV)

How can you get around those verses? They show clearly that Jesus isn't God. I've got many more if you would like me to post them.

If you don't believe them then fair enough, but you shouldn't condemn those who do, because we are only believing what is written in the Bible and believe it to be the truth.

Sorry it's late here, I'm off to bed.

 

[jamie]

Isaiah 45:15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.

Jesus' father was the God of Israel.

"The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate when he was determined to let Him go." (Acts 3:13)

 

[Nihilo]

That isn't a litmus test for salvation, Nihilo.

Romans 10:9 (KJV) indicates otherwise, to me.

A person can believe that God raised Jesus from the dead while claiming He was merely a man. And that is what those who deny the Deity of Christ are doing.

I've found some user accounts here that actually deny His Resurrection right along with the Trinity, which surprised me, because I thought that the two would be independent of each other, like how you seem to be suggesting. I think the correlation between denying the Resurrection, and denying the Trinity, is pretty strong. This Marhig could be an outlier, or an exception.

Every cult out there would say that much.

If there's one thing I remember them not squawking about, when I myself was hooked into a cult briefly, it was that the Lord Jesus is risen from the dead. They didn't spend any time on that at all, it was all about obedience and trying harder and being a true disciple and generally preaching the good news of misery.

Islam doesn't believe in the Resurrection, not in the Lord's resurrection. Islam believes in the general Resurrection, but they don't believe that it started already, with the Lord's resurrection; the Firstborn from the dead.

 

[Nihilo]

Why wouldn't I believe in the resurrection? How can we be raised with Christ if there is no resurrection?

You'd be surprised how many user accounts here just flatly deny that He is risen from the dead, but they don't lead with this, they keep it secret.

 

[Nihilo]

Really? Show me the chapter and verse that says that I must believe that Jesus is God to be saved?

I don't have one of those, and I've never seen anyone produce one.

But your position is like saying, "I don't have to be happy that the Lord is risen. I can be miserable about it instead. There's no verse that says I have to be joyful about the Good News." You're right. But why kick against the pricks?

 

[glorydaz]

Romans 10:9 (KJV) indicates otherwise, to me.

Islam doesn't believe in the Resurrection, not in the Lord's resurrection. Islam believes in the general Resurrection, but they don't believe that it started already, with the Lord's resurrection; the Firstborn from the dead.

Indeed, and who is that LORD? If you don't know who that LORD is, you can't confess Him or call upon Him even if He did raise from the dead.

Lazarus was raised from the dead, too. We have those right here who have said Jesus was just another like Lazarus. Surely you must understand the "believe in your heart" encompasses more than just Jesus being raised from the dead.

When Paul speaks of who we confess (call upon), he says "For the same LORD over all..." Who is that referring to? A man or the LORD GOD? One must believe in his heart that the Lord Jesus Christ is the LORD OVER ALL.

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.​

 

[Nihilo]

Indeed, and who is that LORD? If you don't know who that LORD is, you can't confess Him or call upon Him even if He did raise from the dead.

Lazarus was raised from the dead, too. We have those right here who have said Jesus was just another like Lazarus. Surely you must understand the "believe in your heart" encompasses more than just Jesus being raised from the dead.

When Paul speaks of who we confess (call upon), he says "For the same LORD over all..." Who is that referring to? A man or the LORD GOD? One must believe in his heart that the Lord Jesus Christ is the LORD OVER ALL.

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.​

Sometimes I wonder if Constantine didn't interfere in the administration of the Church, in pressuring her to convene a council to address the dispute between those who believe in the Trinity and those who don't, if the Church's own unprovoked solution wouldn't have been more elegant and more effective.

But I don't know what she would have done instead. I even wonder if Arianism wouldn't have just died out, given enough time, just naturally. But instead, they live on, representing less than 1% of all self-identifying Christians today, and apparently, most of them post on TOL.

:chuckle:

 

[glorydaz]

Sometimes I wonder if Constantine didn't interfere in the administration of the Church, in pressuring her to convene a council to address the dispute between those who believe in the Trinity and those who don't, if the Church's own unprovoked solution wouldn't have been more elegant and more effective.

But I don't know what she would have done instead. I even wonder if Arianism wouldn't have just died out, given enough time, just naturally. But instead, they live on, representing less than 1% of all self-identifying Christians today, and apparently, most of them post on TOL.

:chuckle:

Denying the Deity of our Lord and Saviour is the devil's work from the beginning. It will continue until He returns and every knee shall bow and confess Him as Lord. That's what the Gospel demands.

 

[marhig]

I don't have one of those, and I've never seen anyone produce one.

But your position is like saying, "I don't have to be happy that the Lord is risen. I can be miserable about it instead. There's no verse that says I have to be joyful about the Good News." You're right. But why kick against the pricks?

No, because there isn't one in the Bible, and I believe that God wouldn't have left something so important out of the Bible. We who don't believe in the trinity, or that Jesus is God, are judged by others on this, we are judged as hellbound for not believing in it, yet nowhere in the Bible does it say that we must do so. If we are to believe that Jesus is God to be saved, then i believe that God wouldn't have left that out of the Bible, as if it is so important regarding salvation, then it would be clearly written.

But what it does say is that I am to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved. And I do.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

I confess both with my mouth, i confess the Lord Jesus Christ, and believe in my heart that God has raised him from the dead. Now who out of anyone here has the right to say that I won't be saved? Are we not all sinners fallen short of the glory of God? How can we being flesh decide who is going where when they die, or who will be saved and who won't be? Only God can decide who goes where.

None of us are God, and we have no right to judge one another in this way, we judge by the word, we are to speak the word, and God will judge who's going where.

We are to believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, and I do

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

You all need to be careful how you judge others, some seem to be looking down on those who don't believe as they do.

God judges the heart, and Jesus Christ said that it is those who live by the will of God who enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Nihilo]

Denying the Deity of our Lord and Saviour is the devil's work from the beginning. It will continue until He returns and every knee shall bow and confess Him as Lord. That's what the Gospel demands.

If a person calls Him Lord Jesus (Ro10:9KJV), then whether they believe in the Holy Spirit or not, He dwells in them (1Co12:3KJV), confirming the Trinity, in the very utterance of the name of the LORD Jesus.

 

[glorydaz]

If a person calls Him Lord Jesus (Ro10:9KJV), then whether they believe in the Holy Spirit or not, He dwells in them (1Co12:3KJV), confirming the Trinity, in the very utterance of the name of the LORD Jesus.

No, once again that's a litmus test that doesn't work in practice. A person can say anything without speaking by the Spirit. In other words, people can say anything they want to. God doesn't keep them from lying or saying whatever they feel like at the time. I was able to say, "Jesus is Lord" before I was saved, but it wasn't until I knew Jesus was the Lord God that I was saved.

We see that all the time. Paul is referring to the Shema....The Lord our God is one Lord. Basically it's acknowledging that Jesus is the Lord God. It's why so many say it, and or don't mean it when they do, because they tell themselves that Lord is not the same thing as God.

For example.....People like Meshak say Jesus is Lord but they deny He is God. Saying Jesus is Lord doesn't get Meshak saved.

 

[marhig]

For example.....People like Meshak say Jesus is Lord but they deny He is God. Saying Jesus is Lord doesn't get Meshak saved.

Nope your right, Meshak will be saved through faith by the grace of God. If she believes in our Lord Jesus Christ. Which she says she does. Only God can truly know her heart, you (or anyone else) can't judge her on whether she will be saved or not!

Btw, you say that it wasn't until you knew that Jesus is the Lord God that you were saved. Yet Jesus says that eternal life is to know that the father is the only true God.

This is Jesus praying to the father in John 17

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.(John 17:1-3 KJV)

 

[Nihilo]

No, once again that's a litmus test that doesn't work in practice. A person can say anything without speaking by the Spirit.

That's not what Paul says in 1st Corinthians 12:3 (KJV), and it looks to me like I'm to take your word over Paul's, and I can't do that.

In other words, people can say anything they want to. God doesn't keep them from lying or saying whatever they feel like at the time.

Except for 1st Corinthians 12:3 (KJV). Paul says it can't be done without the Spirit. I have to go with how I read Scripture.

I was able to say, "Jesus is Lord" before I was saved, but it wasn't until I knew Jesus was the Lord God that I was saved.

OK.

We see that all the time. Paul is referring to the Shema....The Lord our God is one Lord. Basically it's acknowledging that Jesus is the Lord God. It's why so many say it, and or don't mean it when they do, because they tell themselves that Lord is not the same thing as God.

But Paul was telling Gentiles, who didn't know about the Shema. Even if what you're saying is true, he was writing to Gentiles, not descendants of Abraham.

For example.....People like Meshak say Jesus is Lord but they deny He is God. Saying Jesus is Lord doesn't get Meshak saved.

I'm taking care to include both calling Him Lord Jesus, and believing He rose from the dead.

If Meshak or whomever would willingly go to their deaths, witnessing to the Lord's Resurrection, then I'm not going to dare judge that because they aren't a Trinitarian, that they aren't a Christian. Anybody who would die, testifying to that the Lord is risen from the dead, is a Christian. It is a litmus test, and it was an actual litmus test for many, many Christians throughout history.

 

[glorydaz]

Nope your right, Meshak will be saved through faith by the grace of God. If she believes in our Lord Jesus Christ. Which she says she does. Only God can truly know her heart, you (or anyone else) can't judge her on whether she will be saved or not!

Btw, you say that it wasn't until you knew that Jesus is the Lord God that you were saved. Yet Jesus says that eternal life is to know that the father is the only true God.

This is Jesus praying to the father in John 17

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.(John 17:1-3 KJV)

It's sad that you don't read such verses in context. Like all of our Lord's prayers, they were spoken aloud for a purpose. That means you're supposed to take the entire prayer...not just pick out what might support your idea.

John 17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.​

The invisible God in heaven was being addressed by the embodiment of Him in the person of Jesus Christ. (THE WORD WAS WITH GOD AND WAS GOD) The Godhead is the One True God.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.​

We know this because He speaks of His returning to the same glory He had "with" Him before the world was.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.​

He makes it clear He spoke the words He was sent to say and it was understood that He came out from God. This is what you miss when you don't read the entire context. And it's a shame, because you end up corrupting and adulterating our Lord's words....claiming they mean what they do not.

John 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.​

 

[marhig]

It's sad that you don't read such verses in context. Like all of our Lord's prayers, they were spoken aloud for a purpose. That means you're supposed to take the entire prayer...not just pick out what might support your idea.

John 17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.​

The invisible God in heaven was being addressed by the embodiment of Him in the person of Jesus Christ. (THE WORD WAS WITH GOD AND WAS GOD) The Godhead is the One True God.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.​

We know this because He speaks of His returning to the same glory He had "with" Him before the world was.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.​

He makes it clear He spoke the words He was sent to say and it was understood that He came out from God. This is what you miss when you don't read the entire context. And it's a shame, because you end up corrupting and adulterating our Lord's words....claiming they mean what they do not.

John 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.​

Why does any of that mean that Jesus is God? He's sent from the father so of course he comes from him, but that doesn't make him the Almighty God, and why does being with the father from the begining, before the world was, make him God? And why is the Godhead the trinity? Where in the word Godhead does it say triune or that's it means three? In another chapter, it says this

Colossians 1

For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell

Fulness of God bodily by the power of the Holy Spirit, Christ had the mind and heart of God because he had the fulness of his Spirit bodily, thus making him Emmanuel, God with us, and making him into the express image of God, but none of those things make him God.

I have read John 17 many times and to me, Jesus is praying to God, his father and his God. Why is it sad because I don't believe as you say I should believe? GD what if you're wrong and I am right? Have you thought about that? I have given you many verses now which you bypass and don't address at all and then accuse me of doing the same, yet I do read what you write, I just don't see those verses as you do. They don't clearly say did you are saying, but the verses in quoting clearly say what I've been saying, I'm nut to just pulling my beliefs out of thin air, I'm quoting clear verses from scripture with words that actually say that God is the God is Christ Jesus, even after he's ascended to heaven and your saying I'm wrong? Why am I, if I'm quoting exactly what written in the Bible?

I don't see any triune God in the Bible, it's a shame that you don't take notice of the verses that I quote, which clearly and undoubtedly say that the father is not only the one true God (which Jesus says himself) but also that he is the God and father of Jesus Christ (which again Jesus said himself) and that God of the head of Christ and that the son, after returning to heaven is under subjection to the father making the father the Almighty God. All of which is in the Bible?? Shouldn't I believe it, and rather believe in a trinity that isn't on the Bible? Or God the son that isn't on the Bible either?

I'm going to put some verses in another post, please tell me why I shouldn't believe them to mean what they say. Thanks

 

[marhig]

For GD,

If you don't believe as I do, then fair enough, I don't judge you on that, God looks at the heart and you shouldn't judge me either. Here are some of the verses why I believe as I do, so why shouldn't I believe what it says in them?

John 7:16

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

John 5:30

*I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

2 Thessalonians 2

Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given*us*everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,*Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

It is not mine to grant but is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.(Matthew 20:20-23 KJV)

1 Corinthians 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?(Matthew 26:39 & 27:46 KJV)

Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me, not by my will, but thy will.(Luke 22:42 KJV)

Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.(Luke 23:46 KJV)

Father, the hour is come; glorify your Son - as you have given him power over all flesh

John continues:

John 17:3 kjv

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (John 5:19 KJV)

I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me bears witness of me. (John 8:18 KJV).

Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father…I ascend unto my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.”(John 20:17 KJV)

I go unto the Father, for my Father is greater than I.”(John 14:28 KJV)

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.(John 5-30)

Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God(Mark 10:17-18 KJV)

And that is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, but to us there is but one God, the Father of whom are all things and we in him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things and we by him. (1 Corinthians 8:4-6 KJV)

But I would have you know that the head of every man in Christ and the head of the woman is the man and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3).

For there is one God and one mediator between God and man,the man Christ Jesus.(1 Timothy 2:5 KJV)

Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and the God of all comfort. (2Corinthians 1:3 KJV)

1 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ (rev 12)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 1:3 KJV)

1 Peter 3

Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.(Hebrews 10)

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh,that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent..I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Ephesians 1

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him

Revelation 1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him

Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.(Hebrews 1:9)

Revelation 3

Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God and I will write upon him my new name..He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.(Ephesians 4:6 KJV)

 

[glorydaz]

Why does any of that mean that Jesus is God? He's sent from the father so of course he comes from him, but that doesn't make him the Almighty God, and why does being with the father from the begining, before the world was, make him God? And why is the Godhead the trinity? Where in the word Godhead does it say triune or that's it means three? In another chapter, it says this

Colossians 1

For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell

Fulness of God bodily by the power of the Holy Spirit, Christ had the mind and heart of God because he had the fulness of his Spirit bodily, thus making him Emmanuel, God with us, and making him into the express image of God, but none of those things make him God.

I have read John 17 many times and to me, Jesus is praying to God, his father and his God. Why is it sad because I don't believe as you say I should believe? GD what if you're wrong and I am right? Have you thought about that? I have given you many verses now which you bypass and don't address at all and then accuse me of doing the same, yet I do read what you write, I just don't see those verses as you do. They don't clearly say did you are saying, but the verses in quoting clearly say what I've been saying, I'm nut to just pulling my beliefs out of thin air, I'm quoting clear verses from scripture with words that actually say that God is the God is Christ Jesus, even after he's ascended to heaven and your saying I'm wrong? Why am I, if I'm quoting exactly what written in the Bible?

I don't see any triune God in the Bible, it's a shame that you don't take notice of the verses that I quote, which clearly and undoubtedly say that the father is not only the one true God (which Jesus says himself) but also that he is the God and father of Jesus Christ (which again Jesus said himself) and that God of the head of Christ and that the son, after returning to heaven is under subjection to the father making the father the Almighty God. All of which is in the Bible?? Shouldn't I believe it, and rather believe in a trinity that isn't on the Bible? Or God the son that isn't on the Bible either?

I'm going to put some verses in another post, please tell me why I shouldn't believe them to mean what they say. Thanks

Don't bother. You refuse to believe what is clearly written. He created all things and that doesn't make Him God? Seriously? To what lengths will the heathen go to deny our Lord God and Saviour, Jesus Christ? :nono:

 

[marhig]

Don't bother. You refuse to believe what is clearly written. He created all things and that doesn't make Him God? Seriously? To what lengths will the heathen go to deny our Lord God and Saviour, Jesus Christ? :nono:

Have you read all those verses that I have quoted? What about what is written there clearly? Are you refusing to believe that?