JESUS IS NOT YHWH

[Lazy afternoon]

If I lived in another invisible realm as a spirit named Jack, and on earth as a man named SM77, it creates no conflict to say Jack & SM77 while talking only of one being.
You'll never see the Lord God Almighty (the Spirit). He'll fill all the saved in eternity. Sitting on the throne you'll only see the Lamb. The center of His consciousness is Christ, but that doesn't stop Him from being everywhere and filling all (being everything in everyone, or "all in all").

Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

 

[KingdomRose]

"Divine" means God but is an adjective in English. There is no way to do that with Greek nouns. You are trying to make a Noun, an adjective. It is literally bad English as well as bad Greek. :nono:

I told you, there is no other commentary. Nothing than can touch my translation for you. Literally "God was the Word." Nothing else. -Lon

You are too sure of yourself, when you could be less arrogant. "Divine" does NOT mean "God." Webster has a fine and acceptable definition of "divine"......

DIVINE--"Of, relating to, or proceeding directly FROM God or a god."

So...something "divine" is not necessarily "God." And you are criticizing someone for exhibiting "bad English as well as bad Greek." You are doing so yourself when you say that "a god was the word" is bad translation. It is the ONLY translation that could be rendered and still be adhering to the rules of translating Greek into English.

 

[KingdomRose]

Honesty with the text and meaning of 'logos' is essential here, as I shared previously. The translation "and the logos was divine" or "and the logos was a god" are possible and acceptable translations, as the writer is indicating the qualities of the logos as being God-like, but certainly NOT being the very same 'God' that the logos was WITH.

Trinitarians love to discount the NWT, since it upsets their Christology. However further research supports it as possible when understood properly considering the factors and reasons for rendering it as such. Since the "a god" rendering take a lashing, the "logos was divine" is just as well, from a Unitarian perspective.

For a Unitarian/JW defense and explanation see here.

Jesus the man embodies, serves and reveals the logos of God, the divine wisdom, plan, purpose, idea, thought, logic of divine love. Whether one chooses to believe Christ is the vehicle thru which YHWH creates and redeems, or that the logos is a seperate transpersonal force, intelligence or creative principle ever existing with God and revealed in the person and ministry of Jesus is a matter of preference and personal perspective.

Good post, thank you. I wonder if anyone will bother to check out your link.

 

[Lon]

You are too sure of yourself, when you could be less arrogant. "Divine" does NOT mean "God." Webster has a fine and acceptable definition of "divine"......

I'm going to avoid being snarky in return of your snarky today. Are you honestly 'trying' to witness to a Trinitarian on this website? Or are you just contentious and enjoy banter? I am here to help people think. I pray today, nothing more than that you 'think.' You don't have to be snarky back. I make no bones that I'm no fan of cults. I try not to pass that along to individuals. Try not to be snarky.

DIVINE--"Of, relating to, or proceeding directly FROM God or a god."

So...something "divine" is not necessarily "God." And you are criticizing someone for exhibiting "bad English as well as bad Greek." You are doing so yourself when you say that "a god was the word" is bad translation. It is the ONLY translation that could be rendered and still be adhering to the rules of translating Greek into English.

:doh: In Greek, the words are NOT adjectives. They are nouns in John 1:1. "Divine" is an adjective, therefore, cannot be the correct translation from a Greek noun.

 

[KingdomRose]

To Judgerightly's number 293:

You don't even see your own presentation of the Greek! Look at it! The Logos was WITH "the God"---see that "tov" is before the word meaning "God" in the Greek? It means "the" and refers particularly to the only true God, the Most High over all. There is no "tov" before the Greek word for "god" in the last part of the verse. NO DEFINITE ARTICLE. Therefore the two "gods" are not the same persons. One is the Almighty God "the [tov]" God, and the other is "a" god, a much lesser Being than THE God.

 

[SimpleMan77]

To Judgerightly's number 293:

You don't even see your own presentation of the Greek! Look at it! The Logos was WITH "the God"---see that "tov" is before the word meaning "God" in the Greek? It means "the" and refers particularly to the only true God, the Most High over all. There is no "tov" before the Greek word for "god" in the last part of the verse. NO DEFINITE ARTICLE. Therefore the two "gods" are not the same persons. One is the Almighty God "the [tov]" God, and the other is "a" god, a much lesser Being than THE God.

What about 45:23, where God says "every knee will bow to me"? Paul says that was referring to Jesus. In other words, when you bow before Jesus you are bowing before the one who spoke Isaiah 45:23


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[Lon]

4. Because he is styled the Christ, or the anointed of God. “God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power,” Acts 10:38. Is he who anoints the same with him who is anointed?

Philippians 2:6-8 Unit-Arians CANNOT believe this scripture. It CLEARLY says He 'took on the form of' Himself. That is why Unit-arians don't have a complete bible. They CORRECT what they don't like, censoring God very God, to their own demise.

Read on--

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/100-scriptural-arguments-for-the-unitarian-faith

,

:nono: I care what God says, not what bible cutters, snippers, and correctors think. They HATE God's words, can't make a lick of sense of HIS words.... :nono: .... messing them up and disbelieving them to their eternal shame.

 

[Lon]

To Judgerightly's number 293:

You don't even see your own presentation of the Greek! Look at it! The Logos was WITH "the God"---see that "tov" is before the word meaning "God" in the Greek? It means "the" and refers particularly to the only true God, the Most High over all. There is no "tov" before the Greek word for "god" in the last part of the verse. NO DEFINITE ARTICLE. Therefore the two "gods" are not the same persons. One is the Almighty God "the [tov]" God, and the other is "a" god, a much lesser Being than THE God.

Incorrect. There is no 'a.' Did you know there is a Greek word for 'a' John could have used? He didn't. Sorry, somebody is lying to you. Think today. Quit running to people who will gladly lie to you. They lie all the time. Why? :idunno: The guy that came to my door that said he could read Greek, and was the JW representative over three states, "lied." He couldn't read a lick. He left my house very angry because of it. Called me a few names because of it. Why? Simply because I showed his disciple that he couldn't read a lick of Greek? :idunno:

 

[CherubRam]

Philippians 2:6-8 Unit-Arians CANNOT believe this scripture. It CLEARLY says He 'took on the form of' Himself. That is why Unit-arians don't have a complete bible. They CORRECT what they don't like, censoring God very God, to their own demise.

:nono: I care what God says, not what bible cutters, snippers, and correctors think. They HATE God's words, can't make a lick of sense of HIS words.... :nono: .... messing them up and disbelieving them to their eternal shame.

Christ said the Father is greater.

John 14:28
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

If they were one and the same, then the Father would not be greater than the son. If Christ was also Yahwah the Father, then he would not have said the Father is greater.

 

[SimpleMan77]

Christ said the Father is greater.

John 14:28
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

If they were one and the same, then the Father would not be greater than the son. If Christ was also Yahwah the Father, then he would not have said the Father is greater.

The omnipresent, omnipotent Spirit of God is absolutely more powerful (greater) than the limitations God chose to put on Himself as he partook of humanity.


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[Lon]

Christ said the Father is greater.

:doh: Don't listen to Freedimbulb. YHWH doesn't mean "Father" it means God. These people on here are inept.

John 1:1 says the Word is "with God" AND 'was [is] God.' Such gets no clearer. If you want to 'correct' God, you go right ahead, to your eternal shame. The Kingdom Hall does this. The U-rant-a rag does this. Don't be that terrible person.

John 14:28
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

If they were one and the same, then the Father cannot be greater than the son. If Christ was also Yahwah the Father, then he would not have said the Father is greater.

Read Philippians 2:6-8 again: "He made Himself lower!" The Lord of the Universe, made himself lower, for us! The Lord of the Universe, made himself lower, for us!
You are spurning love!
The Lord of the Universe, made himself lower, for us! The Lord of the Universe, made himself lower, for us!

 

[daqq]

Christ said the Father is greater.

John 14:28
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

If they were one and the same, then the Father would not be greater than the son. If Christ was also Yahwah the Father, then he would not have said the Father is greater.

:thumb:

YHWH is a Name, The Name. Those who claim "Jesus is YHWH" are as anti-Trinitarian as those they accuse, in fact, they are worse because they are successfully infiltrating Trinitarian ranks using dishonesty, subterfuge, and deception. Trinitarians do not generally reject them so readily because they are also proclaiming, "Jesus is God Almighty", but they certainly are not traditional Trinitarians and are more like Modalist-Oneness believers. What they are promoting is really a form of the Oneness doctrine. They also get let off the hook more often because they are so much better in arguing their points than most Trinitarians; but that is only because as Modalists, (and especially in a forum setting), their argument changes and morphs from topic to topic as needed, (hat-switching just like the true Modalist).

Exodus 6:3
3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name El-Shaddai, but by My name YHWH I was not known to them.

 

[freelight]

:doh: Don't listen to Freedimbulb. YHWH doesn't mean "Father" it means God. These people on here are inept.

CherubRam was quoting Christ himself (scripture). Jesus said his Father was greater than he. Please stop your belittling name-calling and BULLYING.

 

[freelight]

I disagree respectfully Freelight. The way in which the whole New Testament, in almost every book, talks about the resurrection of Jesus Christ, makes it clear to me that it is faith in His resurrection that is essential.

My statement that faith in the infinite 'God' is essential HOLDS - I've never rejected the resurrection, and yes...of course thats a significant teaching in the NT, by certain NT writers, mostly Paul. Still, faith in 'God' is the essential. While the resurrection has its place and meaning,...its relative, depending on context and importance. For all that Paul claimed about Christ dying and being raised the 3rd day "according to the scriptures"...there is little if NOTHING in the OT about this event. Just something to nibble on.

 

[daqq]

My statement that faith in the infinite 'God' is essential HOLDS - I've never rejected the resurrection, and yes...of course thats a significant teaching in the NT, by certain NT writers, mostly Paul. Still, faith in 'God' is the essential. While the resurrection has its place and meaning,...its relative, depending on context and importance. For all that Paul claimed about Christ dying and being raised the 3rd day "according to the scriptures"...there is little if NOTHING in the OT about this event. Just something to nibble on.

That is because that passage does not say, "according to the scriptures", but rather, "according to the writings", which proves that Paul had one or more Gospel accounts that he distributed to at least some of his seven congregations, (most likely "Luke"). But of course the MADites, (who are mostly Oneness-Modalists), will fight that understanding to the death because it relegates their particular flavor of heresy to the trash bin.

 

[Lon]

CherubRam was quoting Christ himself (scripture). Jesus said his Father was greater than he. Please stop your belittling name-calling and BULLYING.

Right, because you were 'so gracious' with your post lain:
If you draw blood, you can't cry when your own nose gets bloody. You pridefully prognosticate and then cry when someone calls you on it. You often make your own way on TOL and then do not realize why you are getting the same back at you. You've called our God cruel, and managed to malign us with a cruel character all our own as well, all the while not realizing you feign nice, but aren't at all. You don't like us, Freelight. -Lon

 

[daqq]

What about 45:23, where God says "every knee will bow to me"? Paul says that was referring to Jesus. In other words, when you bow before Jesus you are bowing before the one who spoke Isaiah 45:23


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That is not what Paul says or even implies and, additionally, the passages do not even match up unless you read Isaiah from the Greek Septuagint.

 

[freelight]

Right, because you were 'so gracious' with your post lain:
If you draw blood, you can't cry when your own nose gets bloody. You pridefully prognosticate and then cry when someone calls you on it. You often make your own way on TOL and then do not realize why you are getting the same back at you. You've called our God cruel, and managed to malign us with a cruel character all our own as well, all the while not realizing you feign nice, but aren't at all. You don't like us, Freelight. -Lon

God bless you. I will continue to call out what I see as improper, abusive and demeaning. You continue to do so. My calling you out on it, is just that. You're posturing, marginalizing, dividing...as if its "us against them" mentality. This is an equal opportunity forum, and I've been expounding here for many years, and will continue to do so. I will discuss the topics and subjects at hand in 'creative dialogue' and construction discussion, thats what this forum is for. But I will NOT be bullied, or allow another to be unjustly so.

 

[CherubRam]

:doh: Don't listen to Freedimbulb. YHWH doesn't mean "Father" it means God. These people on here are inept.

John 1:1 says the Word is "with God" AND 'was [is] God.' Such gets no clearer. If you want to 'correct' God, you go right ahead, to your eternal shame. The Kingdom Hall does this. The U-rant-a rag does this. Don't be that terrible person.

Read Philippians 2:6-8 again: "He made Himself lower!" The Lord of the Universe, made himself lower, for us! The Lord of the Universe, made himself lower, for us!
You are spurning love!
The Lord of the Universe, made himself lower, for us! The Lord of the Universe, made himself lower, for us!

[FONT=&quot]Psalm 82:6[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
I said, "You are (gods / elohiym you are all sons of the Most High.

[FONT=&quot]John 10:33-34[/FONT]
33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be [FONT=&quot][a god][/FONT] God."
34 Yashua answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are (gods / elohiym'?) [FONT=&quot]35If he called them ('gods / elohiym,') [/FONT][FONT=&quot]to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken—[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?[/FONT] Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Yashua was asked if he was the Messiah, he was not asked if he was God. It has always been understood that the Messiah would be a god from Heaven.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]John 10:24.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] The Jews who were there gathered around him, asking, “How long will you keep us in suspense, if you’re the Messiah, tell us plainly?”


[/FONT]

 

[freelight]

That is not what Paul says or even implies and, additionally, the passages do not even match up unless you read Isaiah from the Greek Septuagint.

And still, CHrist is not being worshipped as 'God' here,....all bow down to the Father,....Christ is worshipped naturally because he is God's Messiah-Son, his representative, his anointed AGENT, His manifest image, the outshining of his glory in bodily form. Only the Father is worshipped 'proper', as True DEITY, the Original Infinite LORD of all lords, the God of gods. Pure Spirit.